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Re: vr4

> give you the reference.  it is in german, though.  yes, it is gimmicky, but
> you notice that it is not an option.  it is an integral part of the entire
> setup of the car.  (the paper sez so)
> on the pig, you have the cheap lame fwd non turbo versions w/o the wing. 
> that tells me that the wing is nothing more than a decorative afterthought.
> ooo, it even moves up and down!  if the wing was part of the overall
> aerodynamics of the car, it would not be an option.
> the 911's movable whale tail on the non turbo models is also not an 
> option.. does that tell you anything?

Gee, wonder why they scrapped the moving "wing" in favor of a huge fixed 
whale tale in the take-no-prisoners, track bound twin turbo.  Why not 
stick with the moving one if it's so amazingly functional.  Plus on the 
Porsche, the tail is as much if not more for cooling the engine as it is 
for downforce.  Apples to Oranges.
> >  Not original thinking by the Japs......  Or the Porsche toyz....  All
> > show, really?  do you know if any or all of them adds downforce or reduces
> > underchassis turbulence.....   Me thinks not.......
> i haven't seen any claims of what it does other than add drag.  perhaps,
> you being a great fan of it can enlighten me.  :)
> be careful with your abbreviations guy, the PC police will come haul
> you away!!!
stuff cut out
> > >the rx7 is proof that a wonderful concept falls on deaf american ears.  
> > Concept of what eliot, a race car?
> engineering concepts are not very subjective.  the lighter your car is, the
> fewer engineering problems there are to solve.  it is poor engineering to let
> the fat form and then react to countering its ill effects.  get it? 

That's a pretty ignorant statement, eliot.  I hope you don't claim to be 
an engineer (at least not a good one) with that attitude.  Every GOOD 
engineer knows that the first step in design of anything is the 
determination of need and purpose.  If weight is the only (or even the 
major) consideration, why doesn't your mammoth 200tq have double a-arms 
and a light 4130 alloy steel tube frame with kevlar body pannels and 
carbon fiber brakes?  Because the engineers considered comfort, safety, 
reliability (ok, that may be pushing it), and performance.  The Mitsu 
wasn't built for the track.  And, quite honestly, a lot of folks don't 
really care about a .3 g improvement on the skid pad if it means 
bone-jarring spikes from gravel.
> > >they have to toe the line like mitsu who just goes ahead and makes whale
> > >blubber with a zillion bhp and 8 mpg engines, knowing that the americans
> > like
> > >it, engineering purity be dammed.  

Wrong!!! That statement might read correctly if you substitute RACE CAR 
engineering.  Might!

> > Say what?  You should read more eliot......   That RX7 and the VR are in
> > close company on mileage, so forget that.....  You are arguing to argue, not
> > by facts or rationale
> are you forgetting that a rotary is famous for being a gas guzzler?
> put a rotary in the fat ugly pig and pump it up to those same performance
> levels and see what kind of mileage you get!  3.5 mpg, i'll bet.  
> hee hee hee.
> > >name me one race engineer who doesn't try him dammnest to cut down on fat!
> > 
> > So, eliot, which argument do you want to take, the track or the street.... 

Name me one STREET car engineer who doesn't try just as hard to improve 
on comfort.
> both. 
> > I
> > can take either one, but you need to focus.....   On the track, fix the wings
> > clear the exh,  pull 500lbs of crap out of the VR and do the things that
> oh good, admission that there's unnecessary crap in the pig...
> > "RACE ENGINEERS" do, which is to maximize the volumetric efficiency of a
> > motor, and my money would be on DOHC V6 TT as a start, way before trimming
> > little if any excess fat off an RX7 t, and AWD to boot.....   
> and admission that the rx7 is lean and mean.... 
> how about telling me about the VR4's competition success or lack thereof?
> i admit that i don't follow production based racing that closely, but
> a good guess is that not many, if anyone races the pig.  maybe you can
> be the first, and if you win, i'll eat my words.. heck, i'll even buy
> you a beer.  
> > >if you think that prostituting oneself for the american masses is ok, that's
> > >your cup of tea.  there will be others like me who will continue to act as a
> > >conscience!  :)
> > Please, eliot.....  You need to drive these and post your impressions, me
> > thinks your conscience would make more rational evaluations.....
> i am not disputing the fact that it can pull high g forces or attain lots of
> speed.  i am bashing the entire concept of a fat pig "high performance"
> mobile loaded with useless sh*t that don't contribute to its performance. 
> it's just crass, and it's also aimed at a very specific segment of the
> american population... those that let testosterone control their heads.
> sports cars should be light first and powerful second.  just my opinion. 
> yes, i would be really happy if audis were lighter too.  

What a cop out.  "I would be happy if audis were lighter too."  Lamblast 
the man and his bro's car, then admit to having the same faults as his.  
So what you're saying is that Audi's are completely against your 
philosophy on how sports sedans should be built.  And you drive the most 
portly example!  Why don't you sell your beast to someone who appreciates 
it for what it does and go buy one of your beloved RX7's.  Along with 
dent pullers for the micro-thin sheet metal, a pair of pliers to rip the 
Bose "sorry" snake stereo out, precious earplugs (or does the rotary make 
"music"?!), and delete air conditioning and power anything (you have a/c 
at the house with your un-stealable stereo), and a come-a-long to pull 
you out of all the ditches you'll manage to find with that predictable 
(hah!) oversteer.

Engineer my butt!

Jeremy R. King
'86 VW Quantum GL5
Audi at Heart

5th year Mechanical Engineering Student, Auburn University
Suspension Team Leader / Co-Founder War Eagle Motorsports
> eliot