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Quattro Digest           Tuesday, 13 February 1996     Volume 03 : Number 122

In this issue:

	Al rotors
	Hella lights vs. PIAA (revisited)
	Low oil light
	Re: Oil Level light?
	Re: Oil Level light?
	Re: PROPELLER SHAFT 88 80Q
	RE: 1990 Coupe Heater Blower Extraction
	Re: Set Konis where?
	Re: Al rotors
	AUDI SPORT STICKERS
	ABT Performance Upgrades
	83TQC handling
	Re: A/C problem/questions
	Re: LIGHTS - 5000CSTQ
	Anti-roll bars for 4000Q
	Body parts
	Re: Hella lights vs. PIAA (revisited)
	Re: ABT Performance Upgrades
	Re: A/C problem/questions
	"G'd out" 5k
	Al Rotors - The definitive answer (Looong)
	Re: Al Rotors - The definitive answer (Looong)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Graydon D. Stuckey" <graydon@apollo.gmi.edu>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:26:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Al rotors

On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Robert S. Cohen wrote:

> STEADIRIC wrote-
> >>Sure, less is better, but c'mon man!
> >>You tryin' to tell me that the relative rotational mass of the prowler
> >>brakes Vs that of the viper brakes accounts for the better braking *more*
> >>than does the relative mass of the vehicle and relative amounts of swept
> >>area?
> >
> >Yes I am, do the math.......  Don't know the math, LEARN IT if your going
> >to pontificate.  I know it.......  Graydon knows it........ Scott knows
> >it.........
>
> FALLACIOUS ARGUMENT ALERT.
>
> I'm gonna pontificate. Where's my mitre?
>
> AHEM, Eric, the rest of us don't _ know_ it!
>
> It is not manifestly obvious to me how this can be the case. Perhaps you
> could share the math with the rest of us....?
>
> Before you accuse me of being lazy, I've briefly discussed the problem with
> a physicist here. the upshot of our admittedly naive investigation was that
> aluminum rotors would probably make for somewhat diminished stopping due to
> the specific heat of the (light) aluminum rotor vs the (heavy) iron rotor.
> Decelerating at the same rate, the aluminum rotor will get 40% hotter.
>
>                                 Al              Fe
> Density g/cm^3          2.7            7.86
> Sp. Heat J/(g*degK)     .9              .44
>
> with these numbers, I calculate that for equal volumes (we simply swap
> aluminum for iron) the iron rotor will be 2.9 times more massive. for equal
> masses, the iron rotor will heat 1 degK for each .48 degK the aluminum
> rotor heats. 2.9*.48= 1.392.  So, a rotor of Al equal in volume to the
> original Fe rotor will be increase in temperature 40% more than the iron
> rotor for a given deceleration (energy input). There. I did the math.
>
> regarding the kinetic energy of the rotors themselves, which I think is the
> factor Eric is alluding to, it is  (m w^2 r^2) I think, where m is the mass
> of the ring, w is the angular velocity, and r is the radius of the
> idealized ring. Frankly, I (waving my hands) think this will pale in
> comparison the energy of a 3000 lb car travelling at 100 kmph or so.
>
> End of Audience. Get out of my basilica.....  ;-)

Robert, Glen, Eric, at al,

	I never meant this to be a big heated argument.  I was merely
stating what I heard from Team Prowler.  I didn't do the test myself, nor
was I in attendance when the test was done, so take it with a grain of
salt, not a Congressional seal of approval.

	My point was that the ALuminum rotors reduce the rotating inertia
of the wheel/rotor assemblies, and that has a profound influence on the
braking of the car.  How much is not open t
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Quattro Digest           Tuesday, 13 February 1996     Volume 03 : Number 122

In this issue:

	Al rotors
	Hella lights vs. PIAA (revisited)
	Low oil light
	Re: Oil Level light?
	Re: Oil Level light?
	Re: PROPELLER SHAFT 88 80Q
	RE: 1990 Coupe Heater Blower Extraction
	Re: Set Konis where?
	Re: Al rotors
	AUDI SPORT STICKERS
	ABT Performance Upgrades
	83TQC handling
	Re: A/C problem/questions
	Re: LIGHTS - 5000CSTQ
	Anti-roll bars for 4000Q
	Body parts
	Re: Hella lights vs. PIAA (revisited)
	Re: ABT Performance Upgrades
	Re: A/C problem/questions
	"G'd out" 5k
	Al Rotors - The definitive answer (Looong)
	Re: Al Rotors - The definitive answer (Looong)

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the quattro
or quattro-digest mailing lists.
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

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	unsubscribe quattro-digest

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Graydon D. Stuckey" <graydon@apollo.gmi.edu>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:26:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Al rotors

On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Robert S. Cohen wrote:

> STEADIRIC wrote-
> >>Sure, less is better, but c'mon man!
> >>You tryin' to tell me that the relative rotational mass of the prowler
> >>brakes Vs that of the viper brakes accounts for the better braking *more*
> >>than does the relative mass of the vehicle and relative amounts of swept
> >>area?
> >
> >Yes I am, do the math.......  Don't know the math, LEARN IT if your going
> >to pontificate.  I know it.......  Graydon knows it........ Scott knows
> >it.........
>
> FALLACIOUS ARGUMENT ALERT.
>
> I'm gonna pontificate. Where's my mitre?
>
> AHEM, Eric, the rest of us don't _ know_ it!
>
> It is not manifestly obvious to me how this can be the case. Perhaps you
> could share the math with the rest of us....?
>
> Before you accuse me of being lazy, I've briefly discussed the problem with
> a physicist here. the upshot of our admittedly naive investigation was that
> aluminum rotors would probably make for somewhat diminished stopping due to
> the specific heat of the (light) aluminum rotor vs the (heavy) iron rotor.
> Decelerating at the same rate, the aluminum rotor will get 40% hotter.
>
>                                 Al              Fe
> Density g/cm^3          2.7            7.86
> Sp. Heat J/(g*degK)     .9              .44
>
> with these numbers, I calculate that for equal volumes (we simply swap
> aluminum for iron) the iron rotor will be 2.9 times more massive. for equal
> masses, the iron rotor will heat 1 degK for each .48 degK the aluminum
> rotor heats. 2.9*.48= 1.392.  So, a rotor of Al equal in volume to the
> original Fe rotor will be increase in temperature 40% more than the iron
> rotor for a given deceleration (energy input). There. I did the math.
>
> regarding the kinetic energy of the rotors themselves, which I think is the
> factor Eric is alluding to, it is  (m w^2 r^2) I think, where m is the mass
> of the ring, w is the angular velocity, and r is the radius of the
> idealized ring. Frankly, I (waving my hands) think this will pale in
> comparison the energy of a 3000 lb car travelling at 100 kmph or so.
>
> End of Audience. Get out of my basilica.....  ;-)

Robert, Glen, Eric, at al,

	I never meant this to be a big heated argument.  I was merely
stating what I heard from Team Prowler.  I didn't do the test myself, nor
was I in attendance when the test was done, so take it with a grain of
salt, not a Congressional seal of approval.

	My point was that the ALuminum rotors reduce the rotating inertia
of the wheel/rotor assemblies, and that has a profound influence on the
braking of the car.  How much is not open to discussion really unless you
have real numbers to back you up.  I don't, so I haven't really argued
it.  I would also point out that the rotors are NOT made of simple
aluminum.  They are a pretty exotic alloy (possibly even a composite)
that takes this kind of abuse very well.

	I'd love to run the numbers, but being a lazy engineer, I don't
have all the formulas memorized, and I would have to go back to my texts,
and look up the formulas.

	Unfortunately I don't have time for that today.  I have a sick
Quattro sulking in the garage, and a little boy that wants to play :)

Later,
Graydon D. Stuckey
graydon@apollo.gmi.edu
Flint, Michigan   USA
'86 Audi 5000 CS Turbo Quattro, GDS Racing Stage II
'85 Mazda RX7 GS 12A-leaning-towards-a-13B-soon


------------------------------

From: Gary Erickson <erickson@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:32:12 +0000
Subject: Hella lights vs. PIAA (revisited)

I remember the subject of the PIAA lights vs. the Hella Aux Low Beams coming up a week
or so back.  The clincher is that I'd rather save the money on the PIAA's and go for
the Hellas.

I understand that the Hella's were designed to be mounted on top of the bumper.  Does
anybody know if they can be mounted pendant-style from the bottom of the bumper?  I
know that I'll lose a little bit of the distance that way, but I've got the 100W high
beams to make up that difference.

Finally any sugggestions on how to best mount these suckers to the front of a 4K/GT
series car?  I'd like to try to get them mounted well enough that a minor run-in with
some shrubbery doesn't re-aim them somewhere in the vicinity of Mars/Jupiter!

Thanks,

Gary

------------------------------

From: Robert Hines <hinesr@csa.delta1.org>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:52:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Low oil light

I missed the origional post on the low oil warning light, but can tell
you why mazda has this feature.  When they first started importing the
rotary enginer RX-2 and 3's the engines used a very small amount of
oil for lubrication as a normal part of running.  Therefore the oil
had to be topped up periodically.  The salespeople didn't want to tell
their customers that the car used oil, which was also described in the
owners manual, but thats seldom read.  KSo they let their customer run
the oil down to one quart low and then the metering unit quit
dispensing oil to the rotors and heat and friction caused engine
failure.  Mazda bought a lot of ill will and then later a lot of
factory rebuilds.  cost hem millions.  I was racing an RX-3 in GT-3
and had a dealer sponsorship at that time so had access to his back
lot where a lot of customers abandoned their cars.  We bought twelve
of them and warranteed the motors over time and at the eleventh motor
mazda said no more.  We bought most of the cars for $25 to $50 each
and sold them with minor repairs for $1000 to $1500.  Just another
form of sponsorhsip the way I saw it.  Bob

------------------------------

From: "Al Powell" <APOWELL@agcom.tamu.edu>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:57:44 CDT
Subject: Re: Oil Level light?

Bob D'amato wrote:
> > OK, OK.....but afterall, it'z a rotary, and therefore contrary to the
> > lawz of nachur and apple pie, right???????  (And all one has to do is
> > state something with confidence and someone will find exceptions....
> > :-)
> >
>
> wait wait wait!!! My snowmobile has a low oil warning light, and it isnt 
> rotary!! :)
>
> Bob

Hmm.  I'm beginning to wonder if Bob's snowmobile isn't the only
thing in that family that's at least "one quart shy of a full
crankcase........"  :-)


*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***

Al Powell                           Voice:  409/845-2807
Ag Communications                   Fax:    409/862-1202
107 Reed McDonald Bldg.             Email:  a-powell1@tamu.edu
College Station, TX  77843-2112
W3 page - http://agcomwww.tamu.edu/agcom/rpe/alpage.htm

                    ***The PACK is back!***
*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***

------------------------------

From: "Bob D'Amato" <Bob.Damato@snetel.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 17:16:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Oil Level light?

On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Al Powell wrote:

> >
> > wait wait wait!!! My snowmobile has a low oil warning light, and it isnt
> > rotary!! :)
> >
> > Bob
>
> Hmm.  I'm beginning to wonder if Bob's snowmobile isn't the only
> thing in that family that's at least "one quart shy of a full
> crankcase........"  :-)
>

Gosh.. thanks for the tip, Ill check the Audi tonight! :)


(duhhh!)

:)  Bob


    ______
___/   __ \______    ___       __     ___  ___              __
        _\_\_____)  / _ )___  / /    / _ \/ _ | __ _  ___ _/ /____
       (____)      / _  / _ \/ _ \  / // / __ |/  ' \/ _ `/ __/ _ \
__    (_____)     /____/\___/_.__/ /____/_/ |_/_/_/_/\_,_/\__/\___/
  \____(___)   bob.damato@snetel.com   http://snetel.com/audi/audi.html

The Southern New England Telephone Co.	     |Phone: 203-771-7081
Information and Technology Center            |Fax:   203-773-3398
300 George St. New Haven CT  06510           |Pager: Dont count on it

                   Drive Safe, Drive Fast, Drive a Quattro


------------------------------

From: "Bob D'Amato" <Bob.Damato@snetel.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:51:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: PROPELLER SHAFT 88 80Q

On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Pre-installed User wrote:

> HELLO ALL DOSE ANY ONE KNOW IF YOU CAN GET THE RUBBER BUSING
> THAT IS ON THE PROPELLER SHAFT ON A 88 80Q. THIS IS WHAT I WOULD
> CALL A HANGER BEARING BUSHING ON A NORMAL SPLIT TYPE DRIVE LINE.
> AS OF NOW THRU AUDI DEALER PARTS YOU CAN ONLY GET THE PROPELER
> SHAFT COMPLEAT AT A PRICE OF ABOUT $750.00 NOT CHEAP.
>

Mr Pre-installed user...  (hey, thats what your email says!)

Last check you can only get the whole thing, not sure if they changed
their policy, but that was the case on my friends 89 90Q not 6 months ago.

Bob

    ______
___/   __ \______    ___       __     ___  ___              __
        _\_\_____)  / _ )___  / /    / _ \/ _ | __ _  ___ _/ /____
       (____)      / _  / _ \/ _ \  / // / __ |/  ' \/ _ `/ __/ _ \
__    (_____)     /____/\___/_.__/ /____/_/ |_/_/_/_/\_,_/\__/\___/
  \____(___)   bob.damato@snetel.com   http://snetel.com/audi/audi.html

The Southern New England Telephone Co.	     |Phone: 203-771-7081
Information and Technology Center            |Fax:   203-773-3398
300 George St. New Haven CT  06510           |Pager: Dont count on it

                   Drive Safe, Drive Fast, Drive a Quattro


------------------------------

From: <Porsray%aol.com%NESystems@nes.com> (porsray)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:49:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RE: 1990 Coupe Heater Blower Extraction

Forwarded to:      ismtp[quattro@coimbra.ans.net]
          cc:
Comments by:       Ian Duff@Tech@NESystems
Comments:

I will second the observation about just how large a PITA it is to remove and
replace the glovebox in a '90 Coupe, having done same installing a cell
phone. Here's a tip - use one of those socket driver universal joint thingies
on the two screws on the console side. Lying on your back with your feet
draped over the back of the passenger seat makes visibility rather limited. A
word of warning - don't catch your shirt on the power seat switches, or you
may think your beloved Coupe is trying to kill you. Good luck. Call if you 
have trouble, or direct email for any other info.

Ian Duff
'90 Coupe Quattro, New Bedford MA
617.672.8460 (vmail, pages me during work week)

   -------------------------- [Original Message] ------------------------- 
I saw the following question and decided to address it.

"Okay, I've searched the archives in hopes of finding some
info on removing/replacing the heater blower motor in an
Audi 90 with limited success. I've found good info on
performing the operation on a 5K, but not a 90. I am hoping
that since this replacement is fairly common that one of
you folks who has already done it could give me some insight
into the precedure... Tips/etc. I appreciate any info...
Please email directly and I'll  compose a how-to after I'm done
for the archives...

Thanks,
George"

WHAT?  You are trying this and you don't even have a factory shop manual??
 For shame, for shame!!  The below procedure is from the manual, although
they glossed over some "fun" parts.

I have done this job, and it is not fun at all.  The biggest problem was lack
of room to pull the blower out of the plenum; it is blocked by the passenger
side A/C fresh air duct.  But in case you want to try it, this is the
procedure:

1) Remove the flat black plastic panel located right above the passenger
footwell underneath the dash.  There are two screws at each end right at the
bottom of the glove box door (6mm hex, if I remember).  Unscrew them, then
slide the plastic panel straight out into the passenger compartment.

2) Unbolt and remove the glove box.  This is held in place by 4 hex bolts
(two per side, under the vertical sides of the glovebox door).  These are
just difficult to get at; there is another one at the very top center of the
glovebox that is near impossible to get at.  With the bolts out, the glovebox
can be removed by pushing to one side and pulling out the side mounting rails
on one side; the whole box should then fall out. (Almost forgot: unclip the
glove box light from its bracket first.

3) You should now be able to see the blower mounted into the plenum.  Unscrew
the various hex-head bolts and disconnect the two power lead wires.  With a
little wiggling, the blower should break loose from the plenum.

4) Unfortunately, removal of the blower is blocked by the paseenger side
A/C-fresh air duct.  I thought about removing it, but one look at the
location of the mounting clips indicated to me if I ever got them loose, I'd
never get them back on again.  So, the blower came out using brute force and
prying; fortunately, nothing broke.

5)  The new blower went in with just as much fun as the removal.  make sure
you apply some weaterproof sealant to the circumference of the blower housing
where it seals to the plenum.

6)  Now, more fun:  reinstallation of the glvoe box is another nightmare.
 Problem is trying to align up the nuts on the glovebox mounting rails with
the holes in the insrument panel, place the two plastic trim pieces on the
outside and align THEIR holes, then try to screw in the mounting bolts.  This
took about as much time as the blower replacement itself.

I have owned my 1990 Coupe for about 5 years now, and have amassed almost
100,000 miles on it.  I'll try to pass on my other "fun" experiences in the
future.  However, I love the car and won't sell it for anything else
presently in its market category (am waiting for Audi to offer a A4 Coupe
hatchback - fat chance - or the A4 Avant offered in Europe; probably by the
time it comes over, though, it'll be available only with a wimp stick).

Ray




------------------------------

From: Slprywheel@aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:03:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Set Konis where?

Neil,
   I set my red Koni's at 2/3 hard.  At first they were quite stiff(CD player
skipped often) byt after 7000 miles I have to say that this is a good choice.
 They have seemed to loosen up a bit. I guess I should say that I do like to
drive the car hard so I  do not mind a bit harder ride. Hope this gives you a
starteing point.

JIM
87'5KTQ (red Koni's all around)

------------------------------

From: orin@netcom.com (Orin)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:14:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Al rotors

Another thing to consider is the thermal conductivity of the rotor ie. how fast
it conducts heat away from the swept area.  Aluminum conducts heat away a
lot better than iron/steel and I believe this will more than make up for
the lower specifig heat capacity.

Orin.

------------------------------

From: Slprywheel@aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:52:54 -0500
Subject: AUDI SPORT STICKERS

I hope this is proper etiquette for the forum, if it not just give me a
subtle hint.  Anyway I have just recieved a hundred Audi Sport stickers that
I had made up for me. I would have bought fewer but that was the min. run the
guy I used would do.  Any way I am looking to get rid of some of them.  They
are 2.75"x 3.75" parallelagram with the 1995 Audi Sport design on them. They
are three color (White background, red, black writing) they look almost
perfect except that ther is no gray border(no one will notice). I would like
to get $3.00 apiece. If you are interested please E-mail me direct
(slprywheel@aol.com)as not to take up vabuable band width.

Jim
Finaly found some Audi Sport sticker,too many

------------------------------

From: Joel Cohen <joelc@hookup.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 20:21:13 -0500
Subject: ABT Performance Upgrades

I have a '96 A4 Quattro 5 Speed with the 2.8L V6 12 valve engine and am
considering installing the ABT Performance Upgrade.  The problem is that no
two sources have given me the same(or even ballpark for that matter)
regarding the resulting hp and torque increase resulting from such an
upgrade.  I would appreciate the answer or, in lieu thereof, a push in the
right directikn regarding the resulting increase in both hp and torque.

Please note, that I have already contacted JT Motorsport at (805) 579-9123.
The informed me that the resulting hp and torque and 230 hp and 230 lb/ft
respectively.  Although these guys out to know, this seems kind of high to
me.  Any thoughts?

Also, should I be considered and mods performed by Hoppen Motorsport?

Laslty, what should this thing cost?  I have been quoted prices between
$3,500 US and $7,000 US.

TIA,

Joel


------------------------------

From: RDG51@aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 21:39:20 -0500
Subject: 83TQC handling

I am interested in advice/opinions about how to make my car handle better. It
has stock suspension, 80K miles, no rear antisway bar, and 7"Fuchs wheels
with 205/60-15 tires.
The quality I do not like is that "floaty" feeling-- body roll in turns, and
diving when under hard braking. I am not looking to make this a track car,
just a more sure footed road car while maintaining ride comfort. The Eibach
springs I understand come in two varieties, progressive and linear, the
progressive being too soft on the intial travel and too firm when wound up,
the linear too firm in general or they lower the car too much. Can I achieve
the ride I am looking for with just shocks?  Konis vs. Bilsteins vs? Are gas
shocks the way to go?  I know there are alot of personal preference variables
but I would appreciate any info that can be passed on. Thanks
RDG51@aol.com.

------------------------------

From: John Karasaki <johkar@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:47:34 -0800
Subject: Re: A/C problem/questions

At 10:50 AM 2/12/96 -0700, you wrote:

>So the questions are:

>What leaked out?

You lost your charge of refrigerant.  The refrigeration lines have freon and
oil in them.  The oil lubricates the AC compressor.  That's probably what
you smelled.

>What is the correct name for the radiator thing under the dash?
That's the "evaporator."  The radiator looking thing in front of your
engine's radiator is the AC system's air cooled condenser.

>I was planning on leaving the A/C intact and functional, but if
>I have really screwed up in some high $$$ way, I might save
>some weight.

Refrigerant goes up in price daily now that it is not being produced.  In
the good old days you could buy a can of it to recharge you AC system
yourself for only a couple of dollars.  Now it's $$$/lb.

Actually, it's illegal for you to fix your own AC system if you are not
licensed for handling refrigerant.  Best bet is to have it fixed.

Regards,

John Karasaki

The Karasaki's, proud owners of AUDI automobiles

1981 Coupe
1982 TQC
1984 5000S Wagon
1990 V8


------------------------------

From: John Karasaki <johkar@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:47:31 -0800
Subject: Re: LIGHTS - 5000CSTQ

At 09:35 AM 2/12/96 EST, you wrote:
>Ernest,
>
>I just purchased 9004 halogen lamps that are 55/100 watts from J.C.Whitney.
>These install without any modifications and give significant improvement to the
>night time visibility.

Been there, done that, had light switch problems.  I suggest you install a
relay if you plan on running the those bulbs in "hi".  I had 100 watt bulbs
installed in our '87 5kcst for exactly nine hours.  "Sniff, sniff.  You
smell smoke?"  Then dash lights went out.  There has been much discussion on
the list recently about the stock headlight switch not being able to handle
the additional current draw.  At the NW region picnic last year there were a
few 5kq's there who had gone down the same path with the same frustrating
results.

In a nutshell, if you are going to run higher wattage bulbs in the DOT
lights, modifications are required.

Good luck.

Regards,

John Karasaki

The Karasaki's, proud owners of AUDI automobiles

1981 Coupe
1982 TQC
1984 5000S Wagon
1990 V8


------------------------------

From: Mason Bender <mbender@freenet.columbus.oh.us>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 22:47:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Anti-roll bars for 4000Q

Dear Quattrophiles-

I am writing to find out about experiences with changing the anti-roll
bars on a 4000 quattro.

I would like to use a larger bar up front, and install a small bar in the
rear.  My purpose is to reduce body roll while cornering, and dial out
most of the understeer.

I have looked in the archives, and found some articles, but nothing
specifically pertains to the 4000q.

I am looking to find out what people have done for a rear connection system.
So far I have heard various stories:  From one person who put a set of
front control arms on the rear (will this really work?), to another person
who welded the end of the link-rods to the control arms (seems pretty crazy
to me).

I am also interested to find out what size bars people have used.

Has anyone made an adjustable rear bar?

Your comments are very much appreciated.

Mason B
4kcsq



------------------------------

From: ScottB2460@aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:25:03 -0500
Subject: Body parts

The Mrs. conducted a 360 on ice the other day and kissed a 74 LeMans.  The
LeMans crumpled up while my baby had minor damage to the LF quarter panel.
 The claims adjuster came up with $1200 in parts/labor/paint.  Are there
parts vendors where I can try to get the paint and lens/headlight housings
that will need to be replaced?  I am trying to avoid a $2000 total cost
between my job and the likely totalling of the LeMans.  Anything over the 2
grand gives another "point" against me.  I figure if it goes over that
amount, I can try to go "aftermarket" with the paint and lens/headlight
housings to keep it below that level.  Appreciate any information.

Scott
89 200tq

------------------------------

From: STEADIRIC@aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:56:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Hella lights vs. PIAA (revisited)

>I understand that the Hella's were designed to be mounted on top of the
>bumper.  Does anybody know if they can be mounted pendant-style from
>the bottom of the bumper?  I know that I'll lose a little bit of the
>distance that way, but I've got the 100W highbeams to make up that
>difference.
>
>Finally any sugggestions on how to best mount these suckers to the front
>of a 4K/GT series car?  I'd like to try to get them mounted well enough
>that a minor run-in with some shrubbery doesn't re-aim them somewhere
>in the vicinity of Mars/Jupiter!

I've got them mounted Pendant style on my 5KTQ and they work great.... In
fact I don't even use my high beams anymore and they don't blind
oncomming drivers.

Try removing the lower grill and tucking the back of the lights in there,
but if your running into shrubs and parking stones it's not going to
re-aim the "vicinity of Mars/Jupiter" it's going to break the $35 lenses.
 So I guess the moral of this story is "don't run into them!"

Later!


Eric Fletcher
'87 5KCSTQIA2RSR2B

STEADIRIC@aol.com



------------------------------

From: STEADIRIC@aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:56:17 -0500
Subject: Re: ABT Performance Upgrades

What does the kit include/Do??  With that info then I can help you out.

Later!


Eric Fletcher
'87 5KCSTQIA2RSR2B

STEADIRIC@aol.com



------------------------------

From: STEADIRIC@aol.com
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 01:40:18 -0500
Subject: Re: A/C problem/questions

Actually Dave it sounds like you broke the A/C thermostat A $110 part at
the dealer, Unfortunatly the only place you can get the part.  I spent
five days looking for a place that I could get it cheaper for my old '81
coupe. (Same A/C system)  It's a little capilary tube that goes to a
sensing bulb in the A/C Evaporator and the other end hooks onto the temp
Adjuster slider in the A/C controls.  It's easy (As Audi Climate Controls
go) to change and takes about 30 min.

Just my $1.05

Later!


Eric Fletcher
'87 5KCSTQIA2RSR2B

STEADIRIC@aol.com



------------------------------

From: dieckeaw@plu.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:12:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "G'd out" 5k

When I first joined the list several months ago there was a thread about
a "G'd out" 5k.  Lowered big time, neon, tinted windows, etc.  I thought
that would look rediculous at the time.  I underestimated myself!

I saw an '84 5k today on my way home.  It had a neon license plate frame,
was lowered several inches but had what looked to be 175/70-14 tires
(stock size for our '73 100ls of yore) with wire hubcaps!  boy did it
look ugly!

I always thought mini pickups and 80's american cars (the most common G'd
car) looked rediculous, but that Audi was BAD!

Just had to share this with 'yall.

- -Adam

------------------------------

From: Jeremy R King <kingjer@eng.auburn.edu>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 01:21:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Al Rotors - The definitive answer (Looong)

Here's a lesson on metallurgy/kinetics/heat transfer/fluid dynamics for
anyone interested - subject to correction as needed.

Glen, you're right on the money with one clarification (I'll get to that
later).  Eric, you're full of it.  You must be using a solar calculator
in moonlight to do your "math".  Alan, very correct.

The key to stopping a car from forward motion (ie possessing kinetic
energy) is to somehow dissipate that energy.  Remember, energy can
neither be created or destroyed.  Therefore we have to get it to change
forms.  One way would be to run the car into a wall or a tree or
something, and share that kinetic energy with the wall and the little
atoms in the metal of the car itself.  Not good.  So the way we do it
without destroying everything is through FRICTION.  Friction is the most
important thing in stopping a car using brakes.  There are two places
this friction is important - one is between the rotor and pads, the other
is between the tire contact patch and the road.  If you think back to
your classes (physics), a frictional force (in our case - stopping force)
is equal to the normal force (normal as in perpendicular, not everyday)
times the coefficient of friction.  So, there are ONLY two ways to
increase a car's stopping force.  One is to increase the coefficient of
friction.  The other is to increase the normal force.  Before somebody
(Glen) jumps all over me on that one with, "What about swept area?"  Easy
- - to come up with a total stopping force on one wheel at the rotor, you must
integrate the normal force at each point over the whole pad area.  Thus
the bigger the pad surface area is, the bigger the overall normal force
will be.

The first thing to look at is the rotor/pad interface.  The rotor/pad's
job is to overcome the rotation of the tire/wheel/rotor/hub/etc
(everything that's rotating) period.  The rotor/pad does not directly
stop linear momentum of the car!  So, Eric, you are correct in saying
that a lighter rotor would reduce rotational inertia of the rotating
mass.  But you're dead wrong in saying that the mass difference from an
aluminum rotor to an iron one will make a significant difference in
stopping force due to reduced rotational inertia.  This effect will be
totally insignificant.  Glen is right on the money saying that the wheel
and tire have a much greater effect on this phenomenon.  The one thing
Glen left out is the fact that the tire also has a frictional force
acting on it that wants to continue to rotate the wheel/tire/etc.  This
force is much greater than the rotational inertia of the rotational mass,
and much much greater than the rotational inertia of the wimpy little
rotor!  So where does this frictional force on the tire come from.
Simple - multiply the normal force on the tire (gee, would that be
weight?!!! as in MASS times acceleration) times the coefficient of
friction between the tire contact patch and road surface.  Again,
integrate the weight of the car over the contact patch - thus if the
contact patch is bigger, you get more overall normal force.  Also note
here that the rubber compound of the tire plays a key role in coefficient
of friction.  So, the heavier the car, the larger the normal force for a
given Cf and tire patch.  Thus a larger frictional force trying to keep
the tire/wheel/etc. spinning.

Obviously, if you have a light car with really good brakes (high Cf), you
can easily lock up the tires.  This is because the normal force on the
tires isn't big enough (small weight) to create enough friction to keep
the tire spinning.  OTOH with a heavy car and bad brakes, the tires
probably won't lock up and the car'll take a while to stop.

We all know that friction works through the generation of heat.
Friction's job is to take kinetic energy and change it into heat energy.
So now heat comes into play.  At the rotors, heat can change the compound
of the brake pads and thus reduce the coefficient of friction between the
pads and rotor (fade).  Here's where I think Aluminum makes its most
important contribution.  First of all, Aluminum is a softer metal than
iron.  Because it's softer, the coefficient of friction between an
Aluminum rotor and a given set of pads would be significantly higher than
the Cf between the same pads and an iron rotor.  MORE STOPPING FORCE!
This is, IMO, the main difference.  Another advantage (though not nearly
as significant) is Aluminum's higher specific heat.  It was pointed out
that an Aluminum rotor would get hotter than an iron one.  Not so.  The
higher specific heat of the aluminum allows it to conduct heat AWAY FROM
THE PADS to other parts of the rotor.  This keeps the temperature at the
pad lower than it would be with an iron rotor.  BECAUSE Aluminum also
dissipates heat to air a lot better than iron.  So now the heat that is
better conducted away from the pad is now better convected and radiated
from the rotor into the air, which will carry this heat away.

So why aren't all rotors aluminum?  For one thing, aluminum is less stiff
than iron.  And the stronger alloys (7075, 7079) tend to be very
brittle.  But the main drawback is that aluminum has about a third of the
cycle life of iron.  It is very subject to fatigue.  Since braking is a
very cycle-intensive process, aluminum is not the best choice for your
dependable, everyday commuter.  Since the racing life of a part (on a
race car) is very small compared to a passenger car, aluminum would be a
viable alternative.  Also, racing applications are tremendously sensitive
to unsprung weight, where aluminum would provide yet another benefit.  I
think the answer lies with composite alloys, which would allow the
benefits and help remedy the weaknesses.

Sorry this was so long.  I hope someone made it to the end.

Jeremy R. King
Senior Mechanical Engineering Student
Suspension Team Leader - War Eagle Motorsports Formula SAE

'86 VW Quantum GL5
Auburn University, Alabama, USA
Hometown - Reidville, South Carolina, USA



------------------------------

From: STEADIRIC@aol.com
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 03:06:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Al Rotors - The definitive answer (Looong)

>The first thing to look at is the rotor/pad interface.  The rotor/pad's
>job is to overcome the rotation of the tire/wheel/rotor/hub/etc
>(everything that's rotating) period.  The rotor/pad does not directly
>stop linear momentum of the car!  So, Eric, you are correct in saying
>that a lighter rotor would reduce rotational inertia of the rotating
>mass.  But you're dead wrong in saying that the mass difference from an
>aluminum rotor to an iron one will make a significant difference in
>stopping force due to reduced rotational inertia.  This effect will be
>totally insignificant.  Glen is right on the money saying that the wheel
>and tire have a much greater effect on this phenomenon.  The one thing
>Glen left out is the fact that the tire also has a frictional force
>acting on it that wants to continue to rotate the wheel/tire/etc.  This
>force is much greater than the rotational inertia of the rotational mass, 
>and much much greater than the rotational inertia of the wimpy little
>rotor!  So where does this frictional force on the tire come from.
>Simple - multiply the normal force on the tire (gee, would that be
>weight?!!! as in MASS times acceleration) times the coefficient of
>friction between the tire contact patch and road surface.  Again,
>integrate the weight of the car over the contact patch - thus if the
>contact patch is bigger, you get more overall normal force.  Also note
>here that the rubber compound of the tire plays a key role in coefficient 
>of friction.  So, the heavier the car, the larger the normal force for a
>given Cf and tire patch.  Thus a larger frictional force trying to keep
>the tire/wheel/etc. spinning.

Jeremy,

Nice try but.....We once did a test on the Camel Lights car for Hitco
Ind. A huge supplier of Carbon, Metal Matrix, Al, and Cast Iron brakes
for the racing community.  What we found does not support your views but
supports my views. Not only did the car stop faster (Shorter) with a
lighter rotor (All other aspects normilized) but the car Accelerated
FASTER with the lighter rotors.....  On a race car the size of the lights
car (2300lbs 585hp) the wheel weighs 8lbs and the tire weighs 12lbs for a
total of 20lbs.  a Iron Sephricone Rotor for this car weighs 16lbs (With
Top Hat) 0-100mph came up in (Let me get out my notes...) in 8 Seconds
with the gears that we had in for the test.  With the Carbon Rotors That
weighed 6lbs with Top Hat 0-100mph came up in 7secs......... In the same
distance that the Iron rotors took to reach 100mph the Carbon rotor's
helped the car get to 120mph...... Rotational Inertia plays a HUGE PART
is this equation.  If it did not we would'nt have spent $3500 Per Race on
a 8lbs Clutch and flywheel.  Ever lighten a cars flywheel?? HUGE
Difference in Wrap up speed.  Rotational Inertia once again.  Do the
math......

Later!


Eric Fletcher
'87 5KCSTQIA2RSR2B

STEADIRIC@aol.com



------------------------------

End of Quattro Digest V3 #122
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