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quattro-digest           Wednesday, 8 January 1997     Volume 04 : Number 032

*  Welcome to the digest version of the quattro list.
*  See the end of the digest for unsubscribe info.
*  In this issue:
Re: Cheap filters....
Re: BMW translations
Re: Ignition wires
Rear Transverse Links
Windshield washer jet
Bentley Manual -83 UR-Q
Rattling A4
Re: 96 A4 Price
Re: Bose radio for sale / '90 90q20v
Re: Oil Filter Difference's, in general
A4 Aftermarket Contacts
Re: 96 A4 Price
Euro-Light Alternative (Rambling Story...)
Re: Yahoo!
'91 200 TQW Tires
Re: 96 A4 Price
Re: Thermostat
'89 80 - miss and idle instability problem


From: quattro@rogerswave.ca
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:58:24 +0000
Subject: Re: Cheap filters....

> Al Powell writes:
> ... snip ...
> << reams & reams of info on oil filters >>
> ... snip ...
> > It would be nice if someone 
> > on this group would take a hacksaw to one of the Audi filters and 
> > report their findings.
> Well WOW.  Thanks a lot Al for putting all that down on 'paper'.  That
> was exactly the kind of, well-reasoned, experience and information I
> wanted to elicit.  As I still have the old Audi filter off my A4 that I just
> replaced, I'll have a go at dismantling it & will report back (I can just
> see the look on my wife face once she see the mess THIS is likely
> to make!)
> Just per your diatribe on Fram...  Although I dont dispute your 
> statements (I don't know enough to do so), Consumer Reports
> did a 'bit' on oil filters a couple years ago, and Fram came out
> on top.  I know this is old info (and no flames on "Consumer
> Retorts" (Igor)  please) but still interesting nonetheless.
> Oh hell, in the interests of science, maybe I'll go ahead and 
> dismantle the Fram I bought also (Al, it was $2.98, not $1.98!)
> -Mark Quinn
I have taken few oil filters apart from cars I have changed oil ( I 
used to work part time at a garage) and have found that the Fram oil 
filter is one of the cheapest designed and made of all of the ones 
I've taken apart.  I was getting them free becouse I worked there, 
but after the discovery I was glad to pay extra for the VW/Audi 
There is only one thin strip of steel acting as the pressure reliefe 
valve.  God knows how many liters of oil have gone unfiltered due to 
that thin strip of steel. 
You can save a few bucks now, but the engine will get you later with 
a bigger bill!
Stick to stock or better and do not compromize.

Martin Pajak

1982 Coupe (431,000 km)
1984 4000s quattro (320,000 km under the wrench)
1970 Porsche 911E Targa (also under the wrench)

Who put my tools in the dishwasher?


From: JEFDO@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:02:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: BMW translations

>Bavarian Motor Works" or the equivalent German translation

>Bayerischen Motoren Werke, I think.
>Over here the slang term is "BuMWipers" because of the combination of the 
>oversteer propensity of the early 3-series and its frequent ownership by
>who couldn't control a fishtail. 

In New York City it stands for Break My Window!!


Jonathan Fenton     JEFDO@aol.com
Montpelier, VT
'93 S4sIA3


From: human <human@nh.ultranet.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 97 22:18:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Ignition wires

- -- [ From: human * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

>       Does anyone know if the Bosch wires come apart in order to route
>      through the tube?
>      Tom Brown

I cut the tube from hole to hole.  Doesn't seem noticeable after you clamp
it back on.
- --
Huw Powell

HUMAN Speakers



From: Mike VanDusen <mikevand@toltbbs.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 22:48:25 -0500
Subject: Rear Transverse Links

My 86 and 87 5ktq have developed a knocking sound in the rear which I
have discovered are the transverse links on both sides. The outer part
is unbelievably worn and the dealer wants a fortune for the outers($160)
Shokan has the entire assembly for $130. Any other sources out there?
Why do they wear out? Alignment?


From: Eric Billing <eric.billing@cas1.sdrc.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:42:32 -0600
Subject: Windshield washer jet

Hopefully there's a simple fix for this one.

Anybody have experiance with clogged windshield washer jets. The two on =
the passenger side are not passing fluid at all. I disconnected the hose =
from the jet and fluid is getting there with what appears to be =
sufficient pressure. Driver side continues to work fine.

My guess is that some debris (?) is somehow trapped in there. I have =
taken a air compressor (not industrial strength) and tried without =
success to dislodge whatever is in there.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

Eric Billing
Eagan, MN

93 100CSQW
91 AccordEX


From: RDG51@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 23:07:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Bentley Manual -83 UR-Q

Is there a Bentley Manual for the 4000 series that begins before 1984? The
only one I see in the catalog and that is available in my supply store is the
84-87 model yrs, which includes all the 4000 and coupe GT models.  If there
is an earlier edition, what number is it?  Thanks-----Rob Greene


From: Lynn Preston <kaba@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 23:08:01 -0500
Subject: Rattling A4

I have a 96 A4 Q, that makes a small rattling noise under modderate to 
hard acceleration, the problem most often occurs while the car is still 
cold but is sometimes noticable while hot. It sounds as if it is coming 
from the transmission or exhaust system but not the engine compartment. 
I am wondering if anyone else has expierenced this annoyance and if so 
what can be done about it.


From: William Murin <murinw@cs.uwp.edu>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:10:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: 96 A4 Price


Check Edmunds again.  They changed their entire format effective about 
1/1/97.  Frankly I liked their old style better, but as of a couple of 
days ago they did have numbers up for a '96 a4.

Bill Murin


From: Solomon Ngan <sngan@netaccess.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 23:17:22 -0800
Subject: Re: Bose radio for sale / '90 90q20v

Andrew Duane USG/PE wrote:
> Hairy green toads from Mars made Solomon Ngan say:
> > Does anyone know whether the Bose radio from Bob's '90 200t is
> > "interchangeable" with the radio of my '90 90q20v ?
> > ie: Do they share common radio wiring harness ?
> >
> > I believe my rear speakers have some kind of booster or amplifier.
> I think it's the other way around.
> I have an '89 100Q and a '90 90Q20V, and the radios are (were)
> quite different. My 100Q has amplified rear speakers; I'm pretty
> sure the 90Q20V does not.
> As for wiring harnesses, I can try to look at my electrical specs
> and compare with Angela's old radio (still in garage; mine is long
> since gone).  They may be the same except for the status display drive.
> --
> Andrew L. Duane (JOT-7)                 duane@zk3.dec.com
> Digital Equipment Corporation           (603)-881-1294
> 110 Spit Brook Road
> M/S ZKO3-3/U14
> Nashua, NH    03062-2698
> Only my cat shares my opinions, and she's too heavy to care.

Thanks for your help
Bob's radio has already been sold. So please don't bother


From: "Meron" <phwomp@cosmoslink.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 20:26:54 -0800
Subject: Re: Oil Filter Difference's, in general

>and filter at 3K at the dealer!  Now your new car has a bigger filter,
>and oil is changed at 7.5K.  Bigger filter, less change, more
>duration, better filtration!  Less cost?
Well Mike, maybe some our listers will put in a diesel filter in their Qs
and save some money on those costly "synthetic" oil changes at $3-5 a qt.
Lets add the numbers, our esteem listers like to change their "synthetic"
at 3K so with a large filter (twice the one they are currently using) they
can change their "synthetic" at 6K, what a great savings of our planet
Thanks Mike for a good post.
Avi Meron
86 5Kcstq with a great big diesel filter and regular (not "synthetic" oil
in the crank case)


From: "dismiss@earthlink.net" <dismiss@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 20:48:16 -0700
Subject: A4 Aftermarket Contacts

As so many A4 owners asked, here are the two contacts for the A4
aftermarket shops that had cars at the LA Auto Show.

The first was a silver one from a shop called Wheel Power, Inc.  The A4
had a very good looking body kit, smoked tail lenses & side markers,
lowered, H&R springs, new front air dam and grille, Remus cat-back
exhaust, bigger throttle body (their own, not Schaumburg), K&N filter
and 18 INCH MAE WHEELS (yes, 18 inch wheels).

This car looked very clean, and not aftermarket.  The wheels had about
1/2 inch of clearance, and I think if they were turned in a bump
situation it would be a nightmare.  It also had an unknown chip (+10
hp).  The guy I spoke with alleged that he can get ABT kits and parts,
as well as any other Audi tuners in US or overseas (except

Contact: Wheel Power, Inc.
         700 Richfield Road
         Placentia, CA  92670
         714-996-2333 (phone)
         714-996-7888 (fax)

The other A4 was the first A!Avantgarde I have seen in person.  It was
red and it looked AWESOME.  The sales guy said it had just arrived from
Germany the day before, and he knew nothing about price or the exact
upgrades made.  This outfit was the European Car famous CEC (Claus
Ettensberger Corp.).  They will be the only A!Avantgarde importers in
the states.

Contact: Barry Borin
         Claus Ettensberger Corp.
         10349 Santa Monica Boulevard
         West LA, CA  90024
         310-203-3900 (phone)
         310-203-3909 (fax)

HTH you A4 owners with big ca$h.

Former QCUSA #356
'90 80Q


From: Bryan Bowen <bowen.47@osu.edu>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 23:39:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 96 A4 Price

At 05:03 PM 1/7/97 -0600, you wrote:
>I've been ogling at a used A4Q at a local dealer configured with leather,
>all weather package, metallic paint, and sunroof with 11K miles.  They are
>asking $26,975.  I note that Edmunds or Kelleys does not have a used price
>for 96's however, the  invoice with these features is $27,692.  Does anyone
>have a feel for whether this is a fair price or how much bargaining room
>there might be?
>-- Jeff Kimbel

You can buy a _New_ loaded 1.8tq manual for $26,500.  I didn't see you list
Automatic transmission, so if it is a manual, I'd go with the 1.8 new.
Order it, now get it in about 2 months.  If you can wait.  A fair price on
this used A4 is probably around $25,500.  The Dealer should be able to give
you that price.  Just be willing to walk out, this is when the salesperson
will begin to weaken.


P.S. when I sold cars this past summer, our "Asking price" for used cars was
about 2500-3000 more than what we paid.  We would usually sell for 1000-1500
more than what we had in the car.  So if their undiscounted asking price was
26900, 25500 is fair.
Bryan Bowen
Junior, Elon College (North Carolina)
International Business and Spanish Double Major

Currently without a car
(Looking for a Coupe Quattro or enough money to get an A4 1.8TQ)


From: "Al Powell" <APOWELL@agcom.tamu.edu>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:39:15 CDT
Subject: Euro-Light Alternative (Rambling Story...)

Igor Kessel, aka: e6941tb@gnn.com wrote (in regard to the quad-
headlight setup from the earky 5K series):

> I have a perfect quad set, that came off my ex-5000s '85 FWD. On that
> car I went through (an admittedly dumb) trapezoid DOT 9004 headlight
> conversion. Did not improve the lighting a bit, although looked better.
> If anyone is interested in following Scott's suggestion, you can have
> those complete quad assys. Make me a (reasonably low) offer.

Folks, this is a GOOD suggestion from Scott and Igor.  Unka Bart, may 
I borrow your story-tellin' hat fer a moment??  Thanks aw'fly....

Now friends, back in 1977 I bought a chevy Monza Spyder, 305 V-8 and 
lotsa git-along (currently for sale, check my web page...).  Anyhow, 
I immediately decided the headlights were the original dim bulbs, and 
changed them.  This car had the small quad rectangular headlights, 
just like the early 5K series.  What I did was this - for 
high beams, I put in new GE halogen sealed-beams.  For LOW beams, I 
bought a set of Hella headlights for $41.95....1977 price.  I must 
say that this combination of lights was extremely effective!!!!

The story continues: since I realized in November that I was going to 
sell my long-treasured Monza Spyder, I decided "Why sell those great 
old Hella lights with it?  They'll fit my '85 Chevy pickup.  I pulled 
the Hella lights (same set of 9003 lamps as installed in 1977 - how's 
that for longevity??) and re-installed a standard set of low beams.

Here, the story gets quirky: I was in Washington, and needed to get 
those headlights to Texas.  How to do it?  I decidd to go for broke 
and look for the *original* box!  I clearly remembered that I had 
put the factory lights into the Hella box and stored them.  I went 
into the house, and said, "Dad, do you have any idea where the box 
for those Hella lights in my Spyder might be?"

He put on his coat, and we went out to his shop.  Looked in "the 
headlight dept."...no luck.  Then we went into our big storage barn, 
and he looked around for a moment, pensively.  Then pointed at a tire 
leaning against a nondescript, dusty open-front plywood storage unit. 
He said "look behind that tire."  Voila!  A bright yellow, 1977 
Hella headlight box - with original Chevy headlights tucked neatly 
into the styrofoam recesses for the Hellas.  Also in the box were the 
installation instructions and all original packing materials, waiting 
for me since 1977.  Is this a system, or WHAT??? (I should know 
better than to ask that...)

So I used the original Hella box inside a larger box and shipped 
the lights to TX with no damage.  BTW - Hella also included an 
adapter which plugged into the Chevy sockets, and which neatly 
adapted the Chevy wiring to work with the 9003 lamps.  They work just 
as well on my '85 pickup!!

Actually, I was mainly looking for a chance to tell this story...19 
years is a long time for something like this to wait for me...

But the point (if any) is:  The quad headlights with a good set of 
Hella aftermarket headlights and a set of sealed-beam halogen high 
beams are DAMN good!!!!  I can attest to it, and I can prove it!! Any 
of you who wanna some to Bryan TX, drink a Shiner Bock with me and 
check the headlights in that ole Chevy pickemup truck will be 

I now return the story-tellin' hat to Unka Bart, with thanks.

Al Powell, Ph.D.                 Voice:  409/845-2807
107 Reed McDonald Bldg.          Fax:    409/862-1202
College Station, TX 77843      

"The secret to keeping winning streaks going is to maximize 
the victories, while at the same time minimizing the defeats".
     (J. Lowenstein, Baltimore Orioles Outfielder)


From: "Meron" <phwomp@cosmoslink.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 20:54:06 -0800
Subject: Re: Yahoo!

>I haven't tried the 5k/XL combo in a wash.  Why don't one of you?
Hey "dirty" Neil,
I have a set of 6' Pia round spot lights on my bumper and they are
surviving the meanest, badest, car wash (I must add that they are mounted
as a tri-pot set up).
Avi Meron
86 5Kcstq
with a very clean car and all auxiliary lights mounted solid.


From: gregsj@mail.imm.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:09:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: '91 200 TQW Tires

Fellow Audians: will a 225x60 15 tire fit a '91 200 TQW or is it a tad 
too wide? TIA for your help and expertise. Greg


From: William Murin <murinw@cs.uwp.edu>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 23:23:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: 96 A4 Price

The market price for used A4qs is going to vary from region to region.

About 2 weeks ago, 7 1996 A4qs went through the auction in Chicago.  the 
average price for those cars at auction was about $26,300.  Given the 
apparent shortage a A4qs in the greater Chicagoland area and the apparent 
strong demand, you are not going to get them at the price Bryan suggests.

Make an offer you can live with.  you can always go up--you cannot go 
down(at least it is not easy to go down).  

Bill Murin


From: Sdbigelow@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:23:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Thermostat

In a message dated 97-01-07 07:48:49 EST, you write:

<< Drivfour@aol.com
 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 00:52:46 -0500
 Subject: Thermostat
  The coolant temp on my 87 5000q only comes up to the first mark on the
  I have change the thermostat about every year and it helps for a while.
  Going up a long hill will raise the temp until leveling off.  Any
 suggestions other than another
 $25 thermostat?    >>

Check/replace the sending unit. Had my mechanic do it today (sorry, but it's
- -12C with no garage) because of the same problem.


Steve Bigelow
84 5ks
82 coupe


From: Bryan Lally <bryan@mst.lanl.gov>
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 22:25:44 -0700
Subject: '89 80 - miss and idle instability problem

My Audi goes vroom at idle.  No, this is a bad thing!  It also misses.
Anyone want to play a remote diagnosis game?  Here are the details to

Car: 1989 Audi 80.  2.0l 4 cylinder.  Front wheel drive, not a
quattro.  72,000 well-taken-care-of miles.  KE-Motronic fuel injection
(the mechanical fuel distributor, continuous injection setup with a
Motronic computer unit).  The car was running fine until about 1 month
ago, when it started this behavior suddenly.  As we started to
investigate, the car suffered from the cappucino incident (failed
coolant pressure cap), which was not connected to the current problem,
and has been fixed.  I realize that the offering to the Audi gods for
the pressure cap may well have been insufficient.

The short story:

The car exhibits 3 symptoms.  All happen somewhat sporadically -
sometimes 2 seconds apart, sometimes 2 minutes.  The symptoms are

	1) vroom at idle,
	2) miss, most noticeable under load, but seems to occur at any
	   speed or load
	3) voltage blip at test point used to read motronic fault

The "vroom" (1) is a momentary increase in RPM from idle by 3-400 rpm.
The idle goes back to normal immediately.  It is caused by the idle
stabilizer responding to it's control signal - i.e., the stabilizer
works, and the computer is generating the signal to make it go vroom.
Why is it generating this signal is the big question.

The miss is a short miss, but seems fairly complete, like spark
disappeared for a short period.  Not a light stumble.

The voltage at the motronic test points is normally 1.5v (engine
running), or 12v (engine not running, key either on or off).  During
the "blip" the needle swings to ~5v.  Of course, the actual spike
could be higher (it's probably 12v), but it is short, and the needle
doesn't react that quickly.  The correlation factor for the voltage
spike and the vroom/miss is 1.0 - they _always_ happen together.

The long story:

The idle vroom is annoying, and a bit of a safety hazard in parking
lots.  The miss is bad enough that it must be fixed.  We've been over
everything we can think of, and have come up blank.  Any ideas before
I take it in to Mr. Dealer?  Or, just want to play along and predict
what Mr. Dealer is going to find?  I hate to admit defeat on this one.
Here's what we've looked at.

Alternator - we disconnected the alternator and ran the car on the
battery, in case the diodes or voltage regulator were causing voltage
spikes that were confusing the computer.  Nope.  Rule out faulty
alternator/regulator.  We also looked at the voltage across the
battery terminals, and saw no spikes.

O2 sensor - we disconnected the O2 sensor, and ran it open loop.
Nope.  Rule out faulty O2 sensor and exhaust manifold leaks.

Intake leaks - we searched for intake leaks, false air, etc.  We found
none.  All the hoses look to be in excellent shape.

Slightly temperature dependent? - the symptoms don't seem to appear
immediately after a cold start; it takes about 1.5 miles for anything
to happen.  The symptoms do occur immediately on a warm start.

Water temperature sensor/switch - we have complete gone over the
temperature sensor and switch, measuring, testing, etc.  We were
really interested in this, as the problem seems to be _slightly_
temperature dependent, and since we got temperature sensor fault codes
from the computer.  Finally, we determined that the temperature
sensor/switch should have a value of about 200 ohms when the engine is
fully warm.  So we put a 200 ohm resistor in the wiring harness, to
simulate a warm and perfect temperature signal.  Nope.  Rule out the
temperature sensor/switch.

Idle stabilizer - other than the vroom, the idle is perfect.  If we
let the clutch out slowly, feeding in no throttle, the idle stabilizer
will keep the idle speed up and we can drive away.  The stabilizer has
been cleaned.  If the stabilizer is disconnected (with the engine
warm), the vroom will (of course) go away.  The miss and voltage spike
remain, and the car idles nearly perfectly.  Rule out idle stabilizer.

It was suggested that since the Motronic computer is near the lower
heater duct in the front passenger foot area, that leaving the heater
off might prolong how long the problem takes to commence.  No, this
doesn't happen.

What to do next and possible theories:

Take car (and wallet) to the dealer.  Make a proper offering.

Check power input to computer, at the computer connector.  If this
voltage is intermittent, the computer will be constantly rebooting.

Check temperature sensor value at the computer connector, to look for
faults in the wiring harness.  Not very likely, as the problem occurs
with the temperature sensors disconnected completely in the engine
compartment.  This test says that the temperature wire is not going
open, as we created an open and the fault still occurred.  It is
perhaps slightly possible that this signal is intermittently getting
shorted to ground.  But it has no correlation with driving over bumps,
etc.  It will happen idling in the garage, not moving.

Open up the computer unit, and spray "cold" spray on the components
while they are operating and see if the problem can be made to
disappear or get worse.  Of course, squirting stuff on the operating
computer is risky and may end up with having to perform the following

Replace the computer - expensive, if this isn't the problem.
Expensive, if it _is_ the problem.  Anyone know an approximate price
for one of these?

Resolder connections on computer.  I've looked at the boards, and
there is not much that can be done in there.  This isn't hand-soldered
hardware, although I've heard of someone doing this on a K-Jetronic
setup.  A screwup results in the previous item.

Because of the abruptness of the voltage spike, and the similar
performance at all speeds/loads, I have concentrated on electrical
problems.  It just doesn't seem to me that fuel flow is the problem
here.  Let me know if this is a bad conclusion.

As always, thanks for any advice.

	- Bryan

'94 BMW K75S		_red_
'94 Honda XR250L	with extra needles and thread
'89 Audi 80		I think I can, I think I can ...


End of quattro-digest V4 #32

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