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quattro-digest Saturday, 18 January 1997 Volume 04 : Number 118 * * Welcome to the digest version of the quattro list. * See the end of the digest for unsubscribe info. * In this issue: 97 Quattro EDL's-what are they? Re: So what's good about FWD? Re: Windshield stuff, gas? Part # for 4KQ rear strut nut? re: RWD Audi? Brake light turns red under hard braking in 1990cq Removing corner lenses Re: So what's good about FWD? Re: Ur-quattro question. Re: So what's good about FWD? Audi introduces the new coupe Steve's 20V ur q Fund Parts Sale, Part III 200q oil temp Re: 97 Quattro EDL's-what are they? Re: Removing corner lenses Re: Audi introduces the new coupe Re: Audi introduces the new coupe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dmiller@iea.com (Doug Miller) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:21:05 -0800 Subject: 97 Quattro EDL's-what are they? I am somewhat embarassed to admit that I don't know much about the Quattro system on my 97 A6 Wagon. There really was no question what I was going to buy, and I tried to find as much information about the current Quattro generation before I bought out of intense interest, rather than for a buy/don't buy decision. Frustratingly, the dealership people were incredibly ill informed about it, and my Quattro driving brothers (3 of them) weren't sure, either - a genuine rarity. I know all about the previous generations with their locking diffs (my preference is for these driver controllable units), and I have factory locking front, center and rear diffs on our 93 LandCruiser. Here is what I know: My car has a Gleason-Torsen center differential, which I am familiar with. The front drive A6's have an EDL (Electronic Diff Lock) on their front axles. There is some vague reference to an EDL in my manual, but no information whether this is front only, front and rear, or a mistaken reference to the FWD models. Even the websites and the page in the 97 brochures discussing the Quattro system are surprisingly mute on this subject. What I want to know is this: Where are the EDL's on my Quattro (if any), and how do they work? Do they achieve full lockup? Are they dry clutches? Wet clutch packs? How long do they tolerate wheelspin before locking up? How long before they release? What speed ranges to they work? Can they handle continuous wheelspin, or do they have a duty cycle? If there are no EDL's, what kind of diffs do I have on the axles? I've had it for a couple weeks, and the other day I put the left front wheel on an ice patch on my sloping driveway with the others on snow. The tire on ice was spinning happily away, while the others pushed me up the driveway and there did not appear to be any effort to reduce the wheelspin going on. It was not uncontrolled wheelspin - seemed to be limited slightly - but the wheelspin was not brought under control. I was hoping it might be stopped by an EDL clamping down or something. At the very end of the ice patch, I *thought* I felt some ABS-like buzzing. This was about a 3 second long test and I had to quit as my wife came out to hop in and head to the store (amazing how many errands you find to do with a new car). Here in Idaho, we have an incredible amount of ice - rather like a Scandanavian country I suppose. We even run custom siped, studded tires on the full time 4wd 'Cruiser for safety. I have plenty of opportunities to test that tasty Bosch 5th generation ABS, and the Quattro system. Inquiring minds want to know. Any input? TIA Doug Miller dmiller@iea.com ------------------------------ From: dmiller@iea.com (Doug Miller) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:21:00 -0800 Subject: Re: So what's good about FWD? Shields wrote: >But I cannot figure out why anyone would build a FWD car. You get the >design constraints of a wheel with both steering and engine attached to >it, along with all the disadvantages of 2WD, and you also get weight >transfer to work against you. There must be some reason everyone is >making FWD cars. >Shields. Having worked in the industry for many years, I can tell you that those observations are correct. The primary advantages of FWD over RWD or AWD accrue to the manufacturers. They are cost (engine/trans/diff contained in one unit), packaging (less weight, no trans tunnel intrusion, larger trunks/fuel tanks), and marketing (the public has been educated to believe FWD is superior). The cost advantage, plus the sudden need to downsize and maintain interior room (packaging) were the primary reasons Detroit made the incredibly fast and expensive change to FWD during the 80's. The primary disadvantages to the enthusiast are too numerous to list. Poor handling, horrible vehicle dynamics, inability to get power to the road without upsetting the steering, etc are just a few. Unfortunately, we enthusiasts don't pay the bills - the other 99.999% of the market does. To John Q. Public (no offense, John) the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages, so in a sense the manufacturers have done the motoring public at large a service. FWD is safer than RWD which it replaced in the hands of the average US motorist. This is simply because of the benign handling of FWD at the limit of adhesion, and the increases in traction in *some* situations. That's the short answer from my perspective. By the way, I had the great honor of being one of the people at GM who helped kill the FWD Camaro/Firebird replacement against incredible odds and a sunk investment of over $100 million. See ya, Doug dmiller@iea.com ------------------------------ From: dmiller@iea.com (Doug Miller) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:20:56 -0800 Subject: Re: Windshield stuff, gas? >In message <116930@sievers.com> quk@sievers.com (Phil Payne) writes: >(BTW - it's a strange feeling to assess the road approaching and decide that >there's _just_ _enough_ room to overtake before a bend, do it, and then >look in >the mirror to find it still full of 20V!) > >-- > Phil Payne > phil@sievers.com > Committee Member, UK Audi [ur-]quattro Owners Club Phil, As a fellow light fanatic, I thought I'd pass along a tip to you and others of your ilk. Reading about the 20v trying to stay out of your spray and gravel reminded me of a cheap way of protecting your lights from chips and such. Get a sheet of a material called static cling vinyl, which is commonly used by merchants to make signs that cling to shop windows. In the States, Taco Bell, Wendy's, etc always have huge full color signs depicting burgers and things on this material because it sticks well without an adhesive. Cut it to the shape of your lights, leaving a 1/4 inch gap between the edge of the vinyl and the edge of the light. This is so the wind can't lift an edge. Anyhow, I keep my lights covered with 10mm thick clear vinyl. It dramatically increases the size of projectile required to do damage, and eliminates the small abrasion sand blasting effects completely. On the down side, it does slightly deteriorate the beam's optics. When I am in conditions that require good optics, (snow, fog, rain) I simply remove them. Actually, they are generally covered in daylight when there is no need for good optics, but damage can occur. The stuff is cheap, and you could probably ask the merchant if they'll give you the signs when they are done so you can cut them up (provided they have enough clear areas) for your use. Also, try a screen printer who advertises they do static cling printing. I may also be able to provide sources to those of you who are in my area. I saved your comment (above) on the 20v in your mirrors, because it made me suck in my breath and remember an incident that happened about 10 years ago. I was working for GM headquarters and driving the wheels off my new Jetta GLI for about 6 months (another good story). Several times in my commute back and forth on the Lodge Freeway, I had encountered a guy in a new GTI and we'd diced it up good naturedly. This particular day I was feeling good and, being young and stupid, I was driving WAY too hard for a public road where people don't behave predictably. As I slalomed my way aggressively through the 3 lanes of already fast moving traffic, I spotted my GTI buddy ahead and passed him before he'd even seen me. He immediately came after me and the chase was on. Our cars were extremely closely matched, and like other times, there was little chance he'd pass me based on performance, more likely a bad lane choice. The Lodge Freeway where this took place has three lanes, and an 8 foot elevated breakdown lane off to each side. Because the freeway is sunken down 20 feet or so to reduce road noise, the breakdown lanes have a solid concrete wall at their outer edges that goes up 20 feet to ground level. The effect is like driving in a narrow slot canyon. The breakdown lane surfaces are about a foot above the road surface, with a gently rounded curb to get onto them. Coming up to a knot of traffic filling all three lanes, I spontaneously drove up onto the breakdown lane beside the fast lane and floored it, passing at closing rates of 30mph or better. Amazingly, the GTI was filling my mirrors when I hazarded a glance while trying not to let the wall passing a foot from my side at 80mph spook me. Suddenly, the road ahead turned sharply and the hair on the back of my neck stood up. I couldn't see more than a second or two in front of me and there was no break in the fast lane to get into. I hit my blinker to alert the GTI that I'd had enough and romped the brakes. At that precise moment, a car being hooked up to a wrecker appeared in our breakdown lane. Dragging rubber, I lofted the GLI off the breakdown lane to avoid a crash and jammed it into a gap that looked barely big enough for the Jetta. With all four wheels briefly locked, I closed to within a few inches of the bumper in front of me, feeling a little thump as I did. Looking in my mirror and fearing the worst, I was astonished to see it full of GTI grille. He'd pulled it off! He could not have been a foot from my bumper at any time, or he'd never have fit into the gap I'd jumped into. The thump was his bumper kissing mine as he followed and slightly miscalculated the incredibly precise move. I'd like to say we pulled off somewhere to have a beer and talk about it, but the truth of it is we both seemed so shaken by it that we just kind of waved feebly and separated. I never saw the GTI again, as I accepted a job in California a few months later. Sure would like to hear what it was like from his vantage point. See ya, Doug Miller dmiller@iea.com ------------------------------ From: "Gary G. Erickson" <erickson@teleport.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:30:55 -0800 Subject: Part # for 4KQ rear strut nut? Why don't I ever find out about these things until the car is apart? (Just a rhetorical question here folks.) A friend's '87 4KQ is down at the local tire shop getting new shocks installed today. (Hey, they're cheaper than my usual mechanic, and they've learned how to read the Bentley manual when I provide it for them!) The fronts went off w/o a hitch, but we have a dilemma in doing the rears. Apparently, the last person to replace the rear struts didn't care much how the car went together. (Hell, they used Gabriel struts!) Both sides are missing that funky little nut that requires the $45 tool from Zelenda to remove, so the top nut was bolted right down on top of the strut bearing. You _don't_ want to know what those bearings looked like. Does anybody (partictularly someone w/ a 4KQ parts fiche!) have the part number for those little nuts? I'd like to have the # so that I can give to the tire shop so they don't have to worry about it. Normally it wouldn't be an issue, but since I won't be able to supervise on Monday, it would make me feel better about it. TIA!! Gary - ----------------------------------------------------------- Gary G. Erickson Member #82 NW Audi Quattro Club Business Solution Integrators, Inc. 503-702-5789 e-mail: erickson@teleport.com ------------------------------ From: JP <palmerj@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:27:47 -0600 Subject: re: RWD Audi? Hey Luis, Are you going to Raytheon with us? Maybe someone 'over there' would know more, but I recall a few years back the BTTC rules allowed AWD cars to be converted to FWD or RWD. I believe it was the Mondeo that Ford was racing and converted to RWD. Im not sure what the rules allowed at that time... if AWD was illegal for that formula. Throw enought money at it, and you could have a RWD twin turbo V6. Jason Palmer 88 5ksquattro Dallas ------------------------------ From: "John S. Taylor" <#jstaylor@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:42:13 -0500 Subject: Brake light turns red under hard braking in 1990cq Sorry if you already looked at this but I had same symptom on my 87 5KCSTQW. Turns out the brake reservoir is two pieces -- a metal base and a plastic reservoir. The plastic reservoir is anchored to the metal base with two seals which, after 10 years, gave way. The plastic reservoir was held in place only by gravity. To test this, push down on the front of the reservoir. If it rocks, the seals have gone. Because of the design of the metal base, the fluid never reached a critically low level. However, anytime I went down hill or braked hard, the plastic reservoir would rock forward. Dealer price to repair this was less than $100 to replace the seals. Hope this helps jst 87 5KCSTQW Reston VA ------------------------------ From: EARLFOSTER <EARLFOSTER@prodigy.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:11:46 -0500 Subject: Removing corner lenses I recently purchased Euro style clear corner lenses and smoked side markers for my '96 Audi A4Q. I was wondering if anyone knew how to remove the turn signal lenses and side markers so I can replace them. ------------------------------ From: "Doyt W. Echelberger" <Doyt@poboxes.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:43:42 -0500 Subject: Re: So what's good about FWD? You probably aren't missing anything.... and you ask "why would anyone build FWD cars......" I think it's all in your perspective of why manufacturers build cars in the first place....to sell them and to pay the stockholders. If you build FWD cars, they sell real well. And emission standards push manufacturers into satisfying that market with lighter cars having better gas mileage. Almost no one who buys cars, races them. Most car buyers are looking for a multipurpose vehicle, and accept compromises that will produce such a vehicle. Since that is where the buyers are, that is what the manufacturers build in large numbers. And they build them to get good emission test statistics. In the US new car market, maybe 3/4 of the buyers need a car that will perform reasonably well in a 4 season environment, and will get good mileage, and have a low cost, with plenty of space inside, or outside in the truck bed in the case of small pickups. This means, cutting weight, creating flat passenger/cargo compartments without big tunnels, and having traction at the drive wheels in snow. FWD keeps the drive tires loaded, cuts weight of long,heavy drive trains, and permits flatter floor space in the passenger box...hence, the minivans and small, cheap, light weight trucks. It's a huge market, especially the minivan craze that keeps evolving into 2d and 3d generations. And people buy them, drive them to work, haul stuff on weekends, and maybe have a couple more vehicles for other purposes. Like a big conversion van for camping and traveling with the family. Or a race car for just that purpose. Or a luxury car that might also do well on the track. That leaves niches for BMW, MB, AUDI, etc. And so that why I think they build FWD cars. Maybe I missed the reasons, but there must be many, 'cause they are everywhere. Doyt 86 4KcsQ, 85 Jetta TD 84 Rabbit D 76 Westfalia 75 Chevy Suburban old Goldwing in barn ............................................................................ ................................... At 05:52 AM 1/18/97 EDT, you wrote: >Since all the racers are delurked this might be a good time to ask this. > >I can understand the advantages of RWD over AWD -- predictability, >low weight, low cost, less complexity (= more reliability, quicker >to market). And I can understand the advantages of AWD over RWD when >you have more horsepower than traction. > >But I cannot figure out why anyone would build a FWD car. You get the >design constraints of a wheel with both steering and engine attached to >it, along with all the disadvantages of 2WD, and you also get weight >transfer to work against you. There must be some reason everyone is >making FWD cars. > >About the only advantage I've heard is that FWD cars are better than >RWD in a low-traction environment and the only reason I can think of >for that is that FWD cars always have nose-heavy weight distributions. >Even if you want a weight balance other than 50-50 (and it doesn't seem >to me that you would), wouldn't a rear-engine rear-drive car be the way >to go? Why aren't Camrys built like that? > >I just don't see any advantage to having a front-engine front-drive car, >*no matter what* your priorities are. But most cars on the road are >built like that. Including non-Quattro Audis. What am I missing? >-- >Shields. > > ------------------------------ From: human <human@nh.ultranet.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 97 20:27:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Ur-quattro question. - -- [ From: human * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- >>The question that's in my mind is at what exact point did Audi >>start putting the fuse box under the hood i.e is there any '83 cars >>with such set-up. Has anyone done a conversion and is it hard i.e. >>wire by wire procedure? >Audi started putting the fuse box under the hood in '84. Beg to differ (unless we're only talking 4's/coupes here), have/had 80 5k,81 5k, 83 5kt all with fuse box under hood. Much better than behind the dash IMO. You can get to both sides to work on it if necessary, and jumping the starter relay is a cinch! Just say no to knees in the snow... - -- Huw Powell HUMAN Speakers http://www.thebook.com/human-speakers There's nothing strange about an ax with bloodstains in the barn; There's always some killing to be done around the farm. Tom Waits ------------------------------ From: human <human@nh.ultranet.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 97 20:28:01 -0500 Subject: Re: So what's good about FWD? - -- [ From: human * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Off the top of my head I think the two main advantages are one, traction - engine weight over the driving wheels, which is not what I would call a race criterion but a real world driving criterion, and two - no tunnel necessary for the driveshaft (and rear differential, axles) leaving more room in the cockpit. These translate to a big deal for the every day driver. Oversteer vs understeer? I suspect is also an advantage, again for the every day driver. There are probably manufacturing considerations to having the entire motive assembly being at one end of the car also. Makes a very neat package with a transverse mounted engine. (Ugh) just my .025 - -- Huw Powell HUMAN Speakers http://www.thebook.com/human-speakers There's nothing strange about an ax with bloodstains in the barn; There's always some killing to be done around the farm. Tom Waits ------------------------------ From: Psycho Bob <honge@creighton.edu> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:27:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Audi introduces the new coupe The new coupe, based on the A3, will be introduced in the auto show later this year. It looks VERY small -- the car, wheels, and everything. - ------------- clip here with virtual scissors -------------- ************************************************************ Send any interesting roadkills to honge@creighton.edu! Keyboard stuck error. Press F1 to continue. Fax (402) 593-8975 Just say "Your lights are on" to DRLs ************************************************************ ------------------------------ From: EICHSTEV@aol.com Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:51:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Steve's 20V ur q Fund Parts Sale, Part III After cleaning the garage of all accumulated junk I've aquired over the past year or so, its time to get rid of some goodies to make room for more! So, here's the stuff... '90 V8 brake booster $50 '90 V8 rear axles $65/each '90 V8 rear tie rod $40 '90 V8 ABS sensors, rear $15/each '90 V8 rear struts w/ springs $80/set Bosch power antenna for '84 &up 5k w/ new mast and gear $75 Emblems: "5000", "CS", "QUATTRO", '86-'87 5kq, new in bags $30 K&N air filter for ur q $15 Three guage panel for early 4k, brown $10 5k/100/200 memory seat control unit (under seat) $10 '86-? 5kt Control Pressure Regulator $25 '90 200q engine harness w/ 2 knock sensors $80 4k instrument cluster, no speedo. $40 5k cruise control diaphram w/linkage $8 5kt exhaust manifold, cracked, repairable $40 '91 200q block and crank, damaged, crank repairable, block maybe $5!!!! FLUKE 75 Digital Multi Meter $75 AND FINALLY: '90 7A 20V rebuilt head, header, intake, fuel rail, injectors, flywheel, clutch, sensors, plumbing, pistons, rods, basically everything except for block and crank. BEST OFFER, will separate Please e-mail me direct w/ all inquiries. Oh yeah, buyer pays shipping which normally runs $5 to $15 depending on weight. Steve Eiche '82 Not So Ur q 3B2B ------------------------------ From: RRFS32D@PRODIGY.COM (MR JERRY BEER) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:56:32, -0500 Subject: 200q oil temp Mine also runs right at 80 degrees C during normal driving and hits 140-145 degrees C on track.. Are all of the 200q's set up wrong by AoA? Regards, Jerry 91 200 STEADIA3qw ------------------------------ From: ti@bazooka.amb.org (Ti Kan) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 17:35:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: 97 Quattro EDL's-what are they? Doug, Check the quattro list archives at http://www.coimbra.com/quattro There has been some discussions about EDL on this list. As well contrasts of the various generations of Audi quattro system design. That should answer all your questions. - -Ti 96 A4 2.8 quattro 84 5000S 2.1 Turbo 80 4000 2.0 - -- /// Ti Kan Vorsprung durch Technik /// AMB Research Laboratories, Sunnyvale, CA. USA /// Internet: ti@amb.org ////// UUCP: ...!uunet!bazooka!ti /// URL: http://sunsite.unc.edu/~cddb/tikan/ ------------------------------ From: ti@bazooka.amb.org (Ti Kan) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 17:31:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Removing corner lenses EARLFOSTER writes: > I recently purchased Euro style clear corner lenses and smoked side > markers for my '96 Audi A4Q. I was wondering if anyone knew how to > remove the turn signal lenses and side markers so I can replace them. If I am not mistaken, I remember reading about a procedure for the removal of the corner lenses (for the purpose of bulb removal) in the owner's manual. Check there... By the way, where did you get these items from? - -Ti 96 A4 2.8 quattro 84 5000S 2.1 Turbo 80 4000 2.0 - -- /// Ti Kan Vorsprung durch Technik /// AMB Research Laboratories, Sunnyvale, CA. USA /// Internet: ti@amb.org ////// UUCP: ...!uunet!bazooka!ti /// URL: http://sunsite.unc.edu/~cddb/tikan/ ------------------------------ From: ScharfR@aol.com Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 22:48:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Audi introduces the new coupe In a message dated 97-01-18 20:37:01 EST, honge@creighton.edu (Psycho Bob) writes: << The new coupe, based on the A3, will be introduced in the auto show later this year. It looks VERY small -- the car, wheels, and everything. >> Gee, and I thought the A3 based Coupe was going to be the TT. Are you talking about another A3 based Coupe? ------------------------------ From: Psychotic Tickle-me Elmo <honge@creighton.edu> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 22:12:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Audi introduces the new coupe ><< The new coupe, based on the A3, will be introduced in the auto show later > this year. It looks VERY small -- the car, wheels, and everything. >> >Gee, and I thought the A3 based Coupe was going to be the TT. Are you >talking about another A3 based Coupe? No, it's not TT. It looks like a convertible -- looks exactly like the current 3-door hatchback A3 with top chopped off -- will be shown off first. And rumor sayz the coupe will immediately follow soon. I don't think this will not replace the "traditional" Audi coupes since the only "AWD" is going to be VW's Synchro. I imagine it's more like a Miata than anything else. - ------------- clip here with virtual scissors -------------- ************************************************************ Send any interesting roadkills to honge@creighton.edu! Keyboard stuck error. Press F1 to continue. Fax (402) 593-8975 Just say "Your lights are on" to DRLs ************************************************************ ------------------------------ End of quattro-digest V4 #118 ***************************** * * To unsubscribe, mail to majordomo@coimbra.ans.net and in the body of * your note, say: * unsubscribe quattro-digest * Questions, comments to quattro-owner@coimbra.ans.net
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