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Dave, Phil et. al. - some thoughts
Dave E. writes:
>btw, phil is speaking on behalf of a large number of (20-30?) mb (torsen)
>ur-quattro owners. thats a much greater sample size than the "bite" brigade
>(none of whom drive a torsen ur-quattro), and who compare the actions of
>non-torsen ur-qauttro's to their torsen-equipped 200's and 5k's (thats apples
>and oranges where i come from)...
Ok, it's not people, it's physics. Few of us that have been bitten doubt
those that haven't (why isn't that the other way around?), that doesn't change
the physics of what is happening. I hear claims all the time. In my 22 years
of driving I have *never* been in an accident (my fault OR someone elses).
And that's exponentially more miles than Phil's 80k on his Urq (I have driven
80k in a year for a couple years in a row). What does that mean? It's the
same argument. I don't for a minute deny that it can't happen, just that it
hasn't. Same with the Torsen Center.
The physics of the torsen dictate there is a huge Torque shift that is
happening as you turn, given the right (or exactly wrong) circumstances. It
appears that is consistent with driving at the limit of available cf, but
that's not a constant either. So, please, let's change this from it didn't
happen therefore there is no spider, to discussing the physics of the torsen.
Jeff and I have tried to look at the Bite that HAS happened to us, in terms of
the physical limitations of the Torsen. It has them. Please, read the
article, I can easily count those who have been bitten vs those that haven't.
But those that haven't, have yet to explain what is wrong with the explanation
from those that have. That is the physics part, not the people part. I don't
make enemies on purpose, I certainly don't want to make them here, with only
So, I see the pot or the kettle this way. Either: A) You accept that some
have been bitten and some haven't, and accept that by the physics, or B) I
haven't been bitten, others that have were driver errror, and the physics of
the Torsen presented by Jeff, I and others are wrong.
I personally (with my btdt, and those that haven't btdt) easily accept A). IF
you want me to believe B) I would ask for some specifics. The homework has
been done. Do you accept that the torque shift happens? My understanding of
a Torsen center diff is that it is possible, under the right or "wrong"
circumstances, to shift Torque, a lot of it, from the front diff to the rear
diff and back again, in the same turn, with rear wheel spin, no lift, and Trg
is at or near maximum. And given that interpretation of the Bible (the torsen
paper), I can explain what happen to me, and what hasn't happened to some. I
have a little difficulty looking at physics, and taking the argument that "it
hasn't happened to me, therefore the physics is not correct". Please help me.
"I've never been in an accident, therefore all that did had driver error and
the actuary tables are a farse." What's the difference here?
Other ideas are certainly welcome. I don't give a hoot if I'm right or wrong.
If I'm wrong in my interpretation of the physics, please do speak up.