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Re: Chevy speak (long)

In a message dated 98-09-21 05:27:34 EDT, you write:

<< I can't think of a more loony transplant, than putting a v8 into a 911, or
> even stupider, putting one into a 928 (already has a very sophisticated V8).
> Parts for 911's are UNBELIEVABLY available, and if you talk to the right
> people, some parts are very reasonable.  Don't even get into the fact that
> any all resale value just got shot down the drain with a V8
> conversion...plus the fact that the rear end is much heavier and the car
> handles even worse.  The following line on their 911 page, couldn't be
> farther from the truth:
 >"but watch out, the kid in the Honda CRX might still pass you by"
> I'll guarantee there ain't NO CRX that will come even close to touching a
> stock 911...heck they can't even touch my CQ!!  All-in-all, bad idea for
> P-cars, with one exception...the 924/944 NA cars.  It has absolutely no
> resale value (other than 944T's), and can REALLY use the power...a V8 is a
 >good idea for that car, or even the 914 (even though that car handles
 >Just be careful with these upgrades...it's a bad idea for Porsches, and even
 >Audi's.  If you want to put a V8 in, I think the Audi V8 is an excellent
 >candidate (apparently there are bellhousing adapters to match auto blocks
 >with the manual tranny).  Another alternative might be the Porsche 928 S4
 >motor which makes gobs of power and there are tons of bolt on parts
 >available.  You might as well do the conversion right, using a more modern
 >engine design with a lighter aluminum block instead of the cast iron Chevy
 >block. >>

Yo Mark:
Since I'm more than intimately familiar with the v8 conversion into Bob
Dupree's audi (he is gunning the timeline to debut it at RA next week), I'm
going to address a few of your comments above.  1)  Cheap chevy v8 conversions
have been around for years.  Why do them?  Well, if one has blown an expensive
911/928S4 motor, a chevy v8 can be a very reasonable alternative.  A complete
motor and harness can be had for under 2000USD (that's engine with ALL
acessories, and the harness).  If multiple overhead valves are your cup o'
tea, an all alum LT-5 (400hp from the box) can be had at a price quite
competitively to a  built 911T motor (price a 993tt replacement motor
recently?).  "Resale price of a v8 conversion"?   Well, if you blew the motor,
what kinda resale do you have?  Buy a replacement 911 motor, what kinda resale
recovery do you have after that escapade?  I really question that you "lose"
when comparing the accounting (and what about the guy that will keep the car
forever?).  And, you gain back some bux on the sale of the 911 parts from the
blown motor that are good.   A 911 with a proper v8 conversion is not a "true
911", but it can be close or better in performance.  As your quote points out,
it sure can be worse, but doesn't that apply to most engine projects?  A read
of a recent Turbo Magazine with the 11sec ET CRX might help put that quote in
perspective.  That means the "kid in the Honda CRX" passes the 993tt by the
660ft mark.

Why do one into a 5ktq?  Well, let's look at some alternatives to
performance...  A highly tweeked 5ktq 10vt (btdt) can maybe see 350 at the
very top of the line (insert a single handful of folks that have this).  What
do you need for that?  Minimum:  A high performance IC (1200USD), and a
computer box (500+USD), and a RS2 turbo or equivalent (2000USD), a 3in exhaust
turbo back (800USD).  That's 4500USD and the head and head gasket  will be
next (btdt too) to make that power reliable over the next 100k.  A 20vt motor
maybe makes the most sense, but finding one for a reasonable price (average
4-5k) is not quite the e-ticket bang for bux (B4B).  Then, to just equal the
performance of the STOCK LT1/LS1 (hp only, not torque), you will need a stage
III chip (800USD), a 3in exhaust (800USD), and an RS2 turbo (2000USD), and the
RS2 manifold (650USD).  Sound expensive?  Ok, back to the chevy.

LT-1 conversion with an aftermarket wiring harness will put the motor at
325/350 (hp/torque).   No stressing hp mods here (mild chip comes with the kit
Bob is using).  This is baseline HP, not tweeked.   FYI, 3rd gear on a 016
gearbox gives up the teeth at 400hp.  So, here you sit with a couple grand
invested, and you haven't even done more than (and can't really:) crack the
Summit Racing catalog of hipo chevy parts (there's T-body mods, TFS heads,
cams, etc.).  450+ is easily attainable with  bolt on parts, EFI harness is
simple (Bonus alert:  If you get the Corvette LT-1/LT-5/LS-1, the computer box
is IN the engine bay, plug and play feature with 5 wire external hookup), and
the car will start and idle with a flick of the starter.  The engine
conversion to the 016 trans is a stock available item, flywheel rearward is
all audi.  

Looking at the rest of your post, I'm amazed by some of the claims.  1)  If a
rock stock CRX can't touch your CQ, the performance data I have on both cars
are false, you are comparing the HF version, or you have a conversion of your
own in your CQ.  2) regarding your thoughts on v8 porsche conversions.  Not
quite with you here either.  The 914 is the best candidate for a 911 6/T
transplant, not a v8.  Your "it handles terribly" might be better applied to
the 911, since a properly setup 914 can take ALL 911/T/S parts (including
brakes, suspension and engine) with no modifications to the body structure,
and it's better balanced and has a lower baseline weight and cog.  And a
properly setup 914 with the 911 conversion will take most tweeked porsches at
the track (bt-seen and drove-t)  A properly setup 951, easily takes the rear
driver 911's.  So, IMO, you have it backwards:  Short of the 911T and 911awd
versions (save catastrophic motor failure), the 911 is the chassis that will
benefit the most from a v8 conversion (and also the reason the most v8
conversions into P cars are indeed the 911rwd), and it can easily have all the
power of the 993tt - at a fraction of the price.  The weight of a corvette
LT5/LS1 ALL aluminum engine p-car, will compare to the 911T within pounds.
The gains?  Price vs HP, they are awesome.

Audi v8 into a 5ktq?  Hey price one out, then price out the parts (just take a
v8 tuneup as an FYI - then find hi-po parts, btdt - you can buy bolt on Hipo
TFS heads assembled with larger valves and all hardware for less than the
price of the stock valves alone on the audi v8 - if you can find them), then
look at the HP (engine/chassis dyno or ET:), stage II 10vt turbo cars can
already run that HP, much cheaper (btdt- IC and 3in exh). Adapter blocks to
mate the auto to the manual?  Not my understanding, but then I haven't looked
in quite some time, the initial price to enter scared me so.  Ben Howell can
easily give you the cons of that setup (he already has to me), and he found
his manual motor most reasonably too.

Some research into your thoughts on a 928 motor might help you understand the
decision to go to the LT1.  So might the cost of the adaptation of that
particular setup.  And B4B, it makes a 20vt conversion cheap.  

Modern motors?  Well, I suppose that refers to the pushrod design of the LT-1
vs. the DOHC version of the 928.  I know it doesn't include:  cheap available
parts, ease of install, cheap bolt-on upgrades, and flawless starting and dead
solid stock reliability.  Your "tons of bolt on parts" to the 928S4 seems
unfounded based on my research a year ago.  There are cams available.  What
else?  Prices?  What can a 4 cam 928S motor be bought for complete with
harness? How much is the custom Bellhousing to engine adapter?  The flywheel
adaptation?  Which starter to use?  The B4B return look good?  Didn't to me in
Jan 1997.

Mark, I've been tweeking audis for 7 years now, and have worked on a plethora
of other projects (including a 951 race car).   It all boils down to Bang 4
Bux.  A 20vt conversion is a neat and solid upgrade.  But to truly make it a
stormer, it needs help, expensive help.  That's what makes the LT1/LS1/LT5
conversions into a plethora of cars, solid performance alternatives.  In ALL
aspects of performance.  Doing a one off LTQ is something that we should all
encourage, not debate, berate or opin (DBO).  Bob and I have already btdt
(DBO), and from the above post, at least a couple hundred hours more than you
(no offense, just defending a really thick file of research, and a lot of
measure and micrometer hours, not to mention said LT1 motor bolted to the 016
in THE car).  I have been involved in the conversion Bob is doing from concept
to execution; the pros and cons of the engine options are over a year past.
Happy to clear up the simple claims with the complicated  and more thorough

And, it will be done.  When others can do better (not just claim), please do
help us out.  There's only one way I know of to do that, the rest is unfounded
speculation.  Right now we are on a mission (insert Blues Bros music here),
and could use more encouragement than opins.  

Mark, when I see "loony" and "stupider" (sic), I see some strong opinions.
When I see the rest of the post, I see incomplete reasoning and homework to
back the claims.  Then I go back to the beginning of your post, and feel
proud, to be both loony and stupider.  

I Thank you, and on Bob's behalf...    :)

Scott Justusson
'87 5ktqwRS2
'84 Urq

Board Member:  Team LT-Q