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ad-blitzes, or is that Flag waving
In message <362B3C92.EDA7E6D8@sbt.infi.net> John Courtney writes:
> Being a long-term bimmerphile, I'm having trouble with this image. The only
> I've ever been passed by an Audi at the track was if the safety flag was out
> they were trailering it.
Then Phil P. writes:
>The record speaks for itself. Before the weight penalty was added,
>A4 quattros won all seven of the national Touring Car championships
>Jorg Winkelhof, the chief BMW pilot in the UK, once said that Frank
>Biela "could win towing a trailer" without the weight penalty.
>The weight penalty they decided to add was exactly equal to the weight
>of Biela's wife and children - imagine racing with your family's
>weight in the car.
>Despite it's (almost) 50% power advantage, an M3 is a relatively
>comfortable target for an ur-quattro in the dry - hard to pass, but
>easy to wear down. In the wet, they don't last two corners.
>My comment about the mirror was because someone in a 328i tried to
>follow me through the twisties from the A412 onto the M25 two weeks
>ago, and discovered that you need a little more than EDL to stay on
> Phil Payne
I find that Johns argument to be more valid than Phil, Dave et. al. Regarding
the A4q, a couple of problems comparing TCC with our beloved street cars.
19in wheels, 343f/330r (that's 13.5in and 13in brakes respectively), 55f/45r
weight dist, 300hp. Now even if you could claim the 300hp, you aren't getting
the rest in a street car. So, please, racing is fun, but quattro gives the
edge in high hp, and sometimes in low cf.
Regarding your rain comments, an M3 will not be slammed by the quattro,
btdrovet against a whole field of quattros, AT the track, all 12 of the
quattros were modded (including Andersons' Urq), the M3 rock stock with
Michelin Pilots, not a single pass, not my car either... I don't find
chasing M3 to be comfortable in the dry in my Urq, and certainly not with G60
brakes, btdt. And in the rain, the M3 isn't at a disadvantage, you guy miss
chassis dynamics arguments in waving the quattro flag. Quattro drivelines
help some in the rain, but given a 50/50 rwd car, vs a 60f/40r car and the
same tires, your total lap speed isn't going to go to the quattro. Advance
this to the braking and chassis dynamics issues (see my previous post), the
quattro advantage on a street car, isn't easy to make. Add to this, that
'quattro' is just weight every time you are in a straight line, you have a
Phil, your anecdotes of quattro prowess aside, doesn't change the idea that a
properly driven M3 all but nixes the quattro advantage. A quick look at the
reviews of quattros competition in ANY mag, shows that the quattro advantage,
just really isn't. Sometimes you see better braking (but that's a hardware
issue, not a quattro one), but not often. Sometimes you see better
performance numbers, but not often. Chassis dynamics is getting simpler these
days. How does one maintain a 50/50 weight balance for the most amount of
lateral and de/acceleration dynamics. That is the win in the game of
performance. Comparing race cars is silly, IMO. None of us drive one. And
how many 300HP street A4'qs do you know? I know of one here in the states.
And it lacks both the TCC brakes and the wheels.
Bottom line is this: The M3 out of the box is hard to beat, period. You can
put 25grand into an A4, and maybe get to the level the M3 4door has, in terms
of performance. But you still have a chassis dynamics problem. CAUSED by
that unfair advantage we know as quattro.
Me, I'll save my timing brags for steamboat, there the quattro shines. BTW,
the post about the tweeked M3 vs the tweeked A4 at CO motorsports park.... I
was there. To put it in perspective, the 90 v8 quattro automatic was only a
couple seconds behind both those cars. The A4 had more bux into his mods, and
the advantage wasn't his, even with the altitude advantage of turbo. When I'm
bumping both of them with audis tank of tanks, I'm not sure of the validity of
that comparo at all.
I'm with John here. The best comparo? Bring your stopwatch to a Quattro club
marque event, get an average lap time in the fastest group at the track of
choice. Then when the bimmer boys go there, get an average lap time of the
fastest group. BTDT, makes John's trailer analogy quite valid. Damn watch.
I do love my quattros boys and girls. But please, this is flag waving, not