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RE: Homebrew IC's

Copper is a better conductor of heat and electricity. It can be less or
more expensive, based on application. I can solder everything together.
Aluminum needs to be brazed and lack of experience, esp. with thin tubing
can cause burn throughs. 

For myself, this is an easy idea. My only roadblock right now is finding
cost effective core tubing. It will work in assembly terms once I get it.
Sometimes working from scratch is better than reinventing an already
established product. My core has damaged lower tubes. You reusing core
idea is no good. Spearco, tap and, aluminum fabricators are expensive.

Haven't you ever had a creative idea? Ever wanna just follow through? I
don't respect some of these mustang and Honda civic guys because their
configurations show no imagination. You can simply buy products A B and C
and get power. I like Audis because you need some creative thought to put
things together. Sure, I can spend $750 on a boost mod, but my $10
wastegate controller setup works just fine. BTW: I was told that it'll
never work right and that my engine will always run lean.

In any event, this idea is a simple one for me. I've made more intricated
things in the past. As far as the assembly, it's going well and everything
is sizing up. If you don't have a good understanding of things, that's
fine. This is no skin off your back as far as how hard it is, so it's best
not to discourage someone from a project about that. Rather,
discouragement should come from a bad design point of view and I don't
believe that the list had a detail that was descriptive enough to be able
to fully understand. I could comment on the rest of your letter, but you
really need to read up on Physics, thermodynamics, and thermochemistry.

*Steve                                             Sachelle Babbar
*'87  5000CS Turbo 5spd 1.3-2.0 bar             <SBABBAR@IRIS.NYIT.EDU>
*Cockpit adjustable wastegate, AudiSport badge
*Disclaimer:"Any information contained herein is based purely on my own
*personal experience and may not necessarily reflect yours. Use caution as
*your results may vary from mine."

On Thu, 9 Dec 1999 QSHIPQ@aol.com wrote:

> Sachelle writes:
> >The 10 pounds you'll save is worth how much in the 1/4 for you? How many
> >of us care about an addition 10 pounds in the face of engine feel?
> Some of us are looking at this thread, thinking that reinventing an IC isn't 
> worth the time, yours OR this lists.  Scott's point (I tend to agree).  
> Doesn't aluminum have better heat exchange properties?
> >You neglect the fact that I'm doing this from a project aspect, not
> >necessarily what's easiest.
> Totally agree, I don't think Scott disagrees either.  His point, there are 
> easier ways to skin this cat. Cheaper?  Aluminum radiators internally 
> tubulated are expensive.
> > My criteria is a bullet proof system with
> >higher internal and external flow. 
> Than what?  The stock IC?  What mods are you running?  The stock audi IC is 
> pretty efficient in design for it's size.  What are you figuring for pressure 
> drop and efficiency with this higher IF and EF?  Is copper the best heat 
> exchanger for this project, or just the cheapest?  
> >As I just emailed Robert Myers about, I
> >won't be able to get the external surface area due to finning of the stock
> >ic, but I'm trying to create a large tube surface area whereas the stock
> >ic has a somewhat low one due to it only being two oval core tubes. I will
> >attempt to make up for the surface area deficit with core tube surface
> >area increase, better internal and external airflow.
> Fins per inch increases efficiency of heat exchanger, what's your target fins 
> per inch?  Gettting more flow decreases efficiency of a given IC size.  IME, 
> this is a massive undertaking, that should have some solid research behind 
> it.  What test methods are you going to use to evaluate your design ideas?  
> Is the bench test method going to correspond to an installed test?  There are 
> some SAE papers on IC's (audis included) available to you.  I encourage you 
> to research them, before you start to solder any copper.
> >BTW: you go out and get an ic and modify the end caps yourself while
> >trying to get it to fit the tight confines while having proper plumbing.
> >Give us your results. I'd be very happy to see them. BTW on that: I've
> >tried. Hope you can do better. It's really easy to propose to someone else
> >to modify another ic and esp, the tanks. It's another for one to do it
> >themselves.
> BTDT.  modifying the end caps, if it's out of your area of expertise, can be 
> done by a good aluminum fabricator.  If that's not available to you, the 
> stock 91 200 IC is.  If your time is worth anything, there are better ways to 
> spend your research and dollars.  There are plenty of stock IC applications 
> that are available at yards for a song, btdt.   All can be modified.  
> >The reason why the thread hasn't died is because it's a point of interest
> >to the list. Maybe not to you, but just like a tv station; your option not
> >to open the letter asnd delete it. 
> You may not think IC design is anything special from a fabrication 
> standpoint.  Several of us following this thread, think you may have a huge 
> practical application and production problem ahead.  
> >I've been receiving many private emails and I try to respond to all of the
> >questions and suggestions for the ic idea. The thread appears to be alot
> >stronger than you think it is.
> For now.  The problem with IC mods is, that they are expensive.  I argue 
> that's for a reason.  A copper core IC isn't as efficient as an aluminum one 
> for starters.  Internal tubulators increase IC efficiency, but decrease flow. 
>  This is way beyond the basics that Corky Bell presented in his book. You can 
> buy open end (no caps) aluminum IC cores in a plethora of sizes from Spearco, 
> and spend a lot less money on a better IC, than the avenue you are chasing.  
> What you will find (btdt) is that finding a space to put a bigger/better IC 
> is the toughest part of the equation.  The best B4B mod is the stock core 
> with new end caps, cuz you already *own* the core.  To enter into the IC 
> design arena beyond stock = bigger, you must modify the existing structure of 
> the car, which becomes a huge safety issue (read crossmember modifications 
> required in the 5ktq, btdt), that would apply to both the 44chassis and the S 
> car chassis, btdt.  
> How do some of us know this?  Not redesigning (reinventing the wheel) and 
> building an IC, just with using the existing products from Spearco or from a 
> stock non marque turbo car.  What exactly are you proposing to make "better" 
> out of copper?  Do you know the different reasons for the different designs 
> inside and out of IC's?
> So pardon a few of us skeptics.  If you really have that much interest, maybe 
> you could establish a website.  
> >If you're not interested, don't read.
> >BTW: I am open to design critcisms and in no way take offense; may help
> >the idea come along.
> From one that has plenty of btdt on this concept.  Set some goals, what 
> you've propose so far is a pretty crude concept.  Things like:  Efficiency 
> target, flow (do you know what the stock turbo flows?), pressure drop, 
> recommended/minimum modifications (ecu, exhaust, turbo), size, feed pipe size 
> and design to and from, location, front structure mods, attachment points, 
> air feed design, heat soak properties.  Plenty more, but don't let me be the 
> grinch that stole the copper IC xmas :).
> Just a bit of a skeptic on this one...  Happy to be proved wrong.  I'm still 
> thinking website though.  
> You certainly are on track to learn a lot about IC's though, I say *that's* a 
> good thing.
> Scott Justusson
> Da Grinch
> '87 5ktqwRS2 -10vt single pass IC
> '84 RS2URQ - 20vt non marque modded single pass IC
> '87 4Runner turbo - non marque stock single pass IC