[200q20v] RE: [s-cars] Re: [BIRA] 3pt Seatbelt harness

Ian Duff (Ultranet) iduff at ma.ultranet.com
Wed Apr 25 11:45:37 EDT 2001

All very interesting. Isn't Scroth the only DOT-approved 4/5/6 point belt
manufacturer? Also, check the rules for any event you wish to enter. Some
driver's schools require both the student and instructor to use the same
type of belt, meaning if you install a 4/5/6 point belt, do the passenger
side too, or you might be required to use the OEM belts.

Also, the FAA and EAA did some studies a while ago WRT to the angle of belts
between the shoulder and their anchor points. This was of particular
interest to homebuilders of aircraft, especially those building aircraft
with bubble canopies where fixing the shoulder belt attach point higher than
the shoulders is not a viable option. They tested frontal and rollover
events, with instrumented crash test dummies, and discovered that spinal
compression was independent of the included angle of the shoulder belts.
This testing was all done years ago, and documented in Sport Aviation. This
is all from my CRS-addled memory, meaning take it all with a grain of salt,
and verify before you make any decisions based on my little note here.

-Ian Duff.
-----Original Message-----
From: Theodore Chen [mailto:tedebearp at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 24 April, 2001 11:46 PM
To: JShadzi at aol.com; s-car-list at yahoogroups.com; 200q20v at audifans.com;
birabrakes at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [s-cars] Re: [BIRA] 3pt Seatbelt harness

--- JShadzi at aol.com wrote:
> I highly recommend the Schroth belts for a few reasons...first off, they
> install easily in most all passenger cars (especially Audis), and can be
> to fit using stock mounting points for the seatbelts.  Five point
> (though certified for full on racing, are overkill for the average track
> event and would require extensive modification to work in a street car
> without a roll cage.

no they don't.  replace the lap seat belt mounting bolts with eye bolts and
use snap-in belts, so you don't have to sacrifice the regular seatbelt.
if you use a six point harness, you can attach the ends of the
antisubmarine strap to the seat mounting bolts.  the shoulder harness
is the trickiest part.  one solution i've seen is to attach to the rear
lap belt anchors, but this has the disadvantage of creating a fairly
extreme angle.  note that the SCCA GCR forbids more than a 45 degree
angle from the horizontal, because moving the shoulder belt away from
the horizontal tends to cause compression of the spine in a hard impact.
and that's a very bad thing.  my brother, who is an orthopedic surgeon,
confirms this.

a good solution from a driver protection standpoint is to bolt a
beefy bar between the b-pillars using the stock shoulder belt
anchors.  this ensures that the shoulder harness doesn't compress your
spine.  you need to make sure this bar is stiff, so it won't bend and
put a big bending load on the mounting bolts.

before my mustang acquired a rollcage, i located the child safety seat
tether in the rear.  although the nut placed there by the factory was
too small to be used for a shoulder harness, it was welded to the
rear subframe, and i drilled a larger hole behind it for my mount.  i
welded a piece of 1/4" plate to the subframe and put the mounting bolt
through it.  this is probably more than you want to do to your audi,
but this is all i had to do, and it was a clean installation.  after i
was done, i just had an eyebolt sticking out.

you may regard proper safety equipment as overkill, and that's certainly
your prerogative.  IMHO, if you feel you need safety harnesses, you
should do the job right.  i honestly don't feel that installing a proper
race harness is any more difficult than installing a schroth.  i've
done several installations in several different cars.

besides, most schroth belts are 2" wide.  every SFI-certified race
harness is 3" wide.

> For the record, I can install a Schroth 3 or 4 point in
> most any Audi in about an hour-without any modifications to the car
> Also, the rear mounting points have a detachable section so after the
> the rear seat area can be easily cleared for passengers and such.

see above for my comments regarding attaching the shoulder harness to
the rear seatbelt anchors.

> Secondly, aside from dropping $400 in a good seat, it is the biggest
> improvement you can make to compensate for average seats.  If one thinks
> need more supportive seats, try a harness and rethink, they hold securely
> truly transform the dirving experience.  From a safety concern they are
> safe, I have never heard of an injury related to them, and I would wager
> they many times safer than the stock seat belt system.

i'm not convinced of that, javad.  i know schroth belts are very pretty
and make a nice and clean installation, but i'm not convinced they
are an improvement over stock from a safety standpoint, primarily
because of the shoulder harness issue.  spinal compression is very
bad, and that's why football players aren't allowed to use their
heads to ram other players.

> They are designed for street cars, not race cars, and they suit the need
> well IMO.

you will never see a schroth harness in a real race car (because it isn't
going to pass tech), and you won't see them in very many dual purpose
cars, either.  mostly, i see them in riceboy cars.  not that i'm calling
you a riceboy, javad.  i do feel that if you are going to spend money
and effort installing a harness, you should do the job right.

we may have to agree to disagree on this one.


> HTH,
> Javad
> In a message dated Tue, 24 Apr 2001  8:45:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> Theodore Chen <tedebearp at yahoo.com> writes:
> << schroth isn't that great, and most, if not all, lack SFI certification
> (which should tell you something about them).  i'd rather get a real
> harness.  racer wholesale also sells real belt, and occasionally they
> have good prices on TRW Sabelts.  a no-frills latch-link system should
> run about $70-$80 from summit racing or RW.
> -teddy
> --- Mike Ouellette <ouellette at snet.net> wrote:
> > Schroth 3/4 point harnesses are available from Racer's Wholesale.
> >
> > Mike O.
> >
> > Tim Sidders wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all
> > >
> > > I'm getting ready for the first drivers school of the year, and I'm in
> > search of a 3pt harness for the 91 200 20v....anyone know of any good
> > on these or where I can be directed to get one rather quickly?????
> > >
> > > Thanks for any help!
> > >
> > > Tim
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > birabrakes-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >
> >
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