[s-cars] More on audi wheel bolts/studs/torque

Philip Mische pmische at comcast.net
Mon Oct 21 21:27:19 EDT 2002

I worked in a race shop for 5 years - sports cars, formula cars, and
prototypes; we used locktite or anti-seize on just about every fastener.
There were no failures or incidents of stuff coming apart.

I tested the anti-seize theory by measuring bolt stretch vs. torque, and the
results were compellingly in favor of the use of anti-seize.   Results with
clean and dry are much more variable, and anti sieze does have a high
temperature benefit.  Using the low end of a recommended torque range could
be argued.

You guys like that "graunch" sound dry fasteners make?  If you don't want to
use anti sieze then don't.  Works for me.

Phil Mische

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Myers" <robert at s-cars.org>
To: <QSHIPQ at aol.com>; <urq at audifans.com>; <quattro at audifans.com>;
<s-car-list at audifans.com>; <v8 at audifans.com>; <200q20v at audifans.com>;
<audi20v at rennlist.org>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [s-cars] More on audi wheel bolts/studs/torque

> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> I'm well aware that you were one of the nay-sayers.  All I can relate is
> experience and my experience, in spite of your advice to the contrary, has
> been only positive.  What do you have to lose by giving it a try other
> perhaps a little bit of work removing the stuff if you aren't pleased with
> the result?  Who knows, you might even become convinced.  :-)
> At 01:01 PM 10/21/02, QSHIPQ at aol.com wrote:
> >I'm one of the ones that said NO! Robert.  IME with antiseize, it can
> >compound, not alleviate anything wrt torquing wheels.  A bolt torque
> >(unless otherwise specified - IE head bolts for instance) are "dry"
> >specification.  ANY use of a lubricant on wheel bolts will change that
> >torque specification.  To what?  I have no idea.  But I have seen wheels
> >with A/S on them get loose.  YMMV?  It could, but contrary to your
> >experience, my customers using it hasn't been so good with A/S.
> >
> >I really see no need for A/S, it's name means exactly what it's designed
> >to do.  In the case of a wheel bolt or nut, a clean thread should and
> >provide a good clamping force on a hub.  If A/S were a recommended Audi
> >procedure, you'd see it in a TSB somewhere (Stabilant-22 is mentioned,
> >isn't anywhere that I can find), or on wheels from the factory, or
> >addressed somewhere OEM or aftermarket.  I have never seen it.    As a
> >shop guy, I'd never put A/S on bolts, cuz there is NO documentation to
> >support it's use, nor is it a standard and routine Audi/any marque
> >procedure.  Audi has several references to loctite on parts that it's
> >as a sealant, not a "locking" compound per sae.
> >
> >As a race car/crew guy, I'd never use it, nor have I *ever* seen it.
> >proper torquing of clean threaded wheel nuts/bolts/hub, there is NO need
> >for it.  Most folks start using it after standing on a foot breaker bar
> >loosen bolts.  That's not an A/S problem, that's a corrosion problem that
> >all aluminum wheel cars with steel hubs and wheel bolts (+ infrequent
> >wheel change intervals) are famous for.  If you remove a wheel bolt, and
> >it's corroded, it either should be replaced, or minimally cleaned.  The
> >hub can be cleaned with a wire brush in minutes, so can the mating
> >of a wheel.
> >
> >When this subject came up on the qlist years ago, several indicated
> >"success" with using A/S.  I personally avoid it like the plague, and
> >never stripped a wheel bolt or nut from "not" using it, and use a common
> >and recommended cleaning procdure only with the same success (er my *1*
> >exception noted:).
> >
> >Robert, you are adding another component to the heat cycle and dry torque
> >clamping forces.  This torque wrench procedure IMO, has nothing to do
> >"coating" bolt/stud threads, it has everything to do with heat cycles,
> >wheel change frequency, torque and the relationship between them.  I just
> >don't see how A/S is going to *help* anything, you've only changed to an
> >unknown wet torque.
> >
> >My dry torque on the subject.
> >
> >SJ
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >In a message dated 10/21/2002 11:16:36 AM Central Daylight Time,
> >robert at s-cars.org writes:
> >
> >
> >Scott,
> >
> >Would  it be possible for you to evaluate whether or not antiseize might
> >alleviate the loss of torque problem.
> >
> >Here's my story:  I have done a number of wheel changes at the change of
> >season when I replace winter tires/wheels with summer tires/wheel.  In
> >every instance, after driving the car for a few miles, I found that the
> >wheel bolts needed retorqueing.  I finally applied some copper containing
> >antiseize to the bolts and since then have never had to retorque after a
> >wheel change over.
> >
> >I have heard all sorts of statements relating to "NEVER use antiseize on
> >wheel bolts!"  IME, I've been satisfied with the results.  Would this be
> >worth a try for your car?  At worst you will need to clean off some
> >from the bolts and their mating parts.  At best your problem might be
> >eliminated.
> >
> >
> >
> >---
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> Bob
> *****
>   Robert L. Myers   304-574-2372
>   Rt. 4, Box 57,  Fayetteville, WV 25840 USA   WV tag Q SHIP
>   '95 urS6  Cashmere Grey - der Wunderwagen    ICQ 22170244
>   http://www.cob-net.org/church/pvcob.htm
> *****
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