Hoppen 3B ecu mod and 3.0 bar PT's

Bernie Benz b.benz at charter.net
Wed Apr 2 13:00:12 EST 2003

Hang in there with us, Mihnea!

In my religion there is always room for more gods, if they know of what they
speak.  Same holds for this list.


> From: Mihnea Cotet <mik at info.fundp.ac.be>
> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 22:37:15 +0200
> To: "Linus Toy" <linust at mindspring.com>, <auditude at cox.net>,
> <200q20v at audifans.com>
> Subject: RE: Hoppen 3B ecu mod and 3.0 bar PT's
> Linus,
> I don't want to bug you but I'll chime in, without trying to advertise for
> myself, consider my post as a simple lister's post (well, the a simple
> lister who knows quite a few things).
> At 11:57 2/04/2003 -0800, Linus Toy wrote:
>> Re:  3.0 bar PT in a 3B:  Go back and read Todd Phenneger's post from
>> yesterday on IA mods for Alex N's 4ktq race car.  A 3.0 bar PT will NOT gain
>> you anything with a stock turbo--turbo is too far out of its efficiency
>> range to work past 2.5 bar--even there, it's at its limit.
> False from the start. The K24 might be outside its 75% efficiency range but
> it can still provide with torque at the RPMs where we're talking increasing
> boost, i.e. between 2500 and 3500 RPM and there is the difference between a
> an AAN MTM 2.5 Bar chip and a 3.0 Bar chip, the difference is 40 Nm torque,
> due to increased boost from 1.4 to 1.65 Bar in that RPM range. Then if it's
> so useless, why does Ned still sell a 3.0 Bar upgrade for stock AAN engines
> with stock turbos?
>> Can you get code that would let a 3.0 bar PT work with a stock turbo?
>> possibly.  But...Remember that all a PT does is translate Pressure 0-250 kPa
>> or 0-300 kPa) to voltage (0-5 VDC).  Based on this (and other) input, the
>> ECU calls up some combination of fuel injector duty cycle, wastgate
>> frequency valve duty cycle, and ignition timing.
> Sorry to say that, I know you've been on these lists for much longer than I
> and so on but with all due respect, THIS IS BULLSH*T! A 20vt Motronic ECU
> *doesn't* compute fuel/timing based on PT input, has never done so and will
> never do so, period.
> All the PT does in the ECU is control boost, i.e. the WGFV. Then, code can
> be made to work with a 1.0 Bar through 5.0 Bar PT if so one desires and if
> one knows how to reprogram the chips.
>> There are only so many
>> lookup combinations available in the maps...you'd probably be throwing away
>> a bunch of them using a 3.0 Bar PT with a little K24, and it might be such a
>> mismatch that it won't work right
> Another typical BS from someone who's never seen a chip's contents, nor
> their maps actual (timing, fuel, corrections, boost and WGFV) values. If
> you want me to prove what I'm saying, I can do so, but please believe me
> one doesn't "throw away" maps because he's installing a 3.0 Bar PT with a
> stock K24. An ECU can't "throw away" maps, it would be very unfortunate if
> such things happened... :-)
>> --that is, you may have a combination of
>> parts that exceeds the dynamic limits of the ECU and its abiilty to control
>> the engine.
> Say what? The dynamic limits of the ECU???? And what are these if I may beg
> your pardon? Oh man, c'mon on, you don't know what you're talking about but
> you're playing the expert!!!!
>> Re:  Socket & IA mod:  Not sure if Ned's changed anything recently, but when
>> he modified my ECU, he removed the stock sockets and replaced them with his
>> own "socket" device which scrambled or altered the timing/addressing of the
>> memory chips.  I once came across a German electronic vendor's site with
>> this type of scrambling technology, specifically for chip-tuners.  So...yes,
>> there are still sockets in the ECU, but no, you cannot replace with stock
>> chips...
> Agreed for the stock chips part for on scrambler sockets but BS for the
> scramblers. I know from a guy who works for that famous company who does
> these sockets, and who also does and sell BTW the world's most used chip
> tuning software, i.e. the software I and at least a few hundreds of tuners
> (I mean the guys who know their stuff,not the resellers or copiers) in
> Europe are using, that no scrambler socket can resist a good quality eprom
> programmer. It's all a matter of data access speed and hence your 20 bucks
> ebay programmer can't read a chip through a scrambler socket, but a good
> programmer will with no problems.
>> Besides which Ned erases and reprograms the original chips in your ECU with
>> the new code.  This is a good thing in that the standard off the shelf chip
>> cannot handle the extremes of the automotive environment--there is no
>> cooling fan or venting of the ECU case!  As I understand it, the pecking
>> order of chip "grades" (and this is rough) is consumer electronic,
>> industrial, automotive, then military.  I'm sure someone can add details
>> here.
> Agreed and not agreed. The original chips are indeed of much higher quality
> than the "commercial" grade chips but commercial grade chips aren't a
> problem, period. And FWIW, military grade chips are also still available
> from their respective manufacturers.
>> Re:  mod the crap out of a 3B:  you better have a big fat wallet that you
>> are prepared to see get very small :)
> No comments here.
> No offense intended to anyone but some things are totally wrong and I had
> to tell the truth. If you think I am wrong and should not say my version
> anymore again, I'll shut up, unsub and stay on the q-list talking wheel
> bearings and cam upgrades, maybe this is more politically correct from
> someone who's not Ned, i.e. who's not God himself. Yeah right!
> Mihnea
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