Hoppen 3B ecu mod and 3.0 bar PT's

Linus Toy linust at mindspring.com
Wed Apr 2 14:11:55 EST 2003


Linus Toy               Insanity is doing the same thing
Mercer Island, WA       you've always done and expecting
linust at mindspring.com   different results
                        - Roger Milliken, Milliken & Co

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mihnea Cotet [mailto:mik at info.fundp.ac.be]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 12:37 PM
> To: Linus Toy; auditude at cox.net; 200q20v at audifans.com
> Subject: RE: Hoppen 3B ecu mod and 3.0 bar PT's
> Importance: High
> Linus,
> I don't want to bug you but I'll chime in, without trying to
> advertise for
> myself, consider my post as a simple lister's post (well, the
> a simple
> lister who knows quite a few things).
> At 11:57 2/04/2003 -0800, Linus Toy wrote:
> >Re:  3.0 bar PT in a 3B:  Go back and read Todd Phenneger's post from
> >yesterday on IA mods for Alex N's 4ktq race car.  A 3.0 bar
> PT will NOT gain
> >you anything with a stock turbo--turbo is too far out of its
> efficiency
> >range to work past 2.5 bar--even there, it's at its limit.
> False from the start. The K24 might be outside its 75%
> efficiency range but
> it can still provide with torque at the RPMs where we're
> talking increasing
> boost, i.e. between 2500 and 3500 RPM and there is the
> difference between a
> an AAN MTM 2.5 Bar chip and a 3.0 Bar chip, the difference is
> 40 Nm torque,
> due to increased boost from 1.4 to 1.65 Bar in that RPM
> range. Then if it's
> so useless, why does Ned still sell a 3.0 Bar upgrade for
> stock AAN engines
> with stock turbos?

I must admit I really mixed a couple points in this one...first one was that
yes, a 3.0 PT can be used in a 3B, as Todd's post noted.  Then I mixed in
thoughts from other posts (why doesn't my car hold peak boost to
redline...since I do driver ed events in my car, a relevant qustion
:)...simplify simplify the writing.

Good point on using a 3.0 bar PT in stock AAN.  Agree that at the RPM ranges
we're interested in for the street (and out of the corners :), K24 can flow
enough air to build that kind of pressure without being too far out of
whack.  What I probably should have said was that if you expect to see 3.0
bar for peak HP, that isn't going to happen w/ the K24.  Yes, 3.0 bar PT
will gain w/ K24 and in a 3B, but for torque, not HP.

> >Can you get code that would let a 3.0 bar PT work with a stock turbo?
> >possibly.  But...Remember that all a PT does is translate
> Pressure 0-250 kPa
> >or 0-300 kPa) to voltage (0-5 VDC).  Based on this (and
> other) input, the
> >ECU calls up some combination of fuel injector duty cycle, wastgate
> >frequency valve duty cycle, and ignition timing.
> Sorry to say that, I know you've been on these lists for much
> longer than I
> and so on but with all due respect, THIS IS BULLSH*T! A 20vt
> Motronic ECU
> *doesn't* compute fuel/timing based on PT input, has never
> done so and will
> never do so, period.
> All the PT does in the ECU is control boost, i.e. the WGFV.
> Then, code can
> be made to work with a 1.0 Bar through 5.0 Bar PT if so one
> desires and if
> one knows how to reprogram the chips.

Careful here...I didn't say the ECU computes anything.  Rather, it is
looking into a series of maps based on inputs from various sensors.  Perhaps
better had I said, based on inputs such as MAP, rpm, temp, etc, the ECU will
look up the maps, then set devices such as FI duty cycle, WGFV, timing, etc
at specific values.

> >There are only so many
> >lookup combinations available in the maps...you'd probably
> be throwing away
> >a bunch of them using a 3.0 Bar PT with a little K24, and it
> might be such a
> >mismatch that it won't work right
> Another typical BS from someone who's never seen a chip's
> contents, nor
> their maps actual (timing, fuel, corrections, boost and WGFV)
> values. If
> you want me to prove what I'm saying, I can do so, but please
> believe me
> one doesn't "throw away" maps because he's installing a 3.0
> Bar PT with a
> stock K24. An ECU can't "throw away" maps, it would be very
> unfortunate if
> such things happened... :-)

Not saying the maps get thrown away...but you may combine components (code,
PT, turbo, FI, MAF etc.) such that that certain points in the maps are never
attained, thus of no use.  The word holistic comes to mind here.

> >--that is, you may have a combination of
> >parts that exceeds the dynamic limits of the ECU and its
> abiilty to control
> >the engine.
> Say what? The dynamic limits of the ECU???? And what are
> these if I may beg
> your pardon? Oh man, c'mon on, you don't know what you're
> talking about but
> you're playing the expert!!!!

Not claiming to be an expert.  But I also know that there are control limits
(adaptations) the ECU cannot/will not exceed.  So when the ECU gets an
implausible input, it will max out the adaptation and go no further--this is
not a map issue--it's a firmware design issue, "safties" built into the ECU.
For example, say the O2 sensor said the mixture was rich and the ECU adapted
the FI duty cycle.  O2 sensor goes happy, all good.  But let's say the O2
sensor still thinks the mixture is rich.  ECU may adapt again, but only so

> >Re:  Socket & IA mod:  Not sure if Ned's changed anything
> recently, but when
> >he modified my ECU, he removed the stock sockets and
> replaced them with his
> >own "socket" device which scrambled or altered the
> timing/addressing of the
> >memory chips.  I once came across a German electronic
> vendor's site with
> >this type of scrambling technology, specifically for
> chip-tuners.  So...yes,
> >there are still sockets in the ECU, but no, you cannot
> replace with stock
> >chips...
> Agreed for the stock chips part for on scrambler sockets but
> BS for the
> scramblers. I know from a guy who works for that famous
> company who does
> these sockets, and who also does and sell BTW the world's
> most used chip
> tuning software, i.e. the software I and at least a few
> hundreds of tuners
> (I mean the guys who know their stuff,not the resellers or
> copiers) in
> Europe are using, that no scrambler socket can resist a good
> quality eprom
> programmer. It's all a matter of data access speed and hence
> your 20 bucks
> ebay programmer can't read a chip through a scrambler socket,
> but a good
> programmer will with no problems.
> >Besides which Ned erases and reprograms the original chips
> in your ECU with
> >the new code.  This is a good thing in that the standard off
> the shelf chip
> >cannot handle the extremes of the automotive environment--there is no
> >cooling fan or venting of the ECU case!  As I understand it,
> the pecking
> >order of chip "grades" (and this is rough) is consumer electronic,
> >industrial, automotive, then military.  I'm sure someone can
> add details
> >here.
> Agreed and not agreed. The original chips are indeed of much
> higher quality
> than the "commercial" grade chips but commercial grade chips aren't a
> problem, period. And FWIW, military grade chips are also
> still available
> from their respective manufacturers.
> >Re:  mod the crap out of a 3B:  you better have a big fat
> wallet that you
> >are prepared to see get very small :)
> No comments here.
> No offense intended to anyone but some things are totally
> wrong and I had
> to tell the truth. If you think I am wrong and should not say
> my version
> anymore again, I'll shut up, unsub and stay on the q-list
> talking wheel
> bearings and cam upgrades, maybe this is more politically
> correct from
> someone who's not Ned, i.e. who's not God himself. Yeah right!

No offense taken...you acquire a thick skin (filter set?--nah, you're not in
there) if you hang around these lists for long :)

> Mihnea

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