auditude at cox.net
auditude at cox.net
Mon Mar 31 09:59:04 EST 2003
Mihnea Cotet <c_mihnea at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Ken! As you might have expected, I'll chime in with
> some comments/thoughts... :-)
Hi Mihnea! New email address in the from field? Reply-to seems to be the same old one.
I wrote some more below.
> --- auditude at cox.net wrote:
> > I was just thinking. If chips are something that
> > can be burned/programmed by anyone with
> > the right equipment, which I hear isn't
> > unattainable, is it just the content of the chips
> > that is
> > what people are paying for?
> Yup, exactly. The chip itself barely costs 5 bucks a
> piece when you buy them 1 piece at once but the
> contents are much more expensive, especially if you
> buy it from someone who developed it himself...
> > Is this stuff technically protected (locked,
> > encrypted, etc.) in some manner that would
> > prevent someone with a chip from a tuner from
> > copying that onto another chip? Or, is it that
> > it is copywritten and the reason I haven't heard
> > about it more related to intellectual property
> > issues?
> Even if it might be bad for my business, I'll say the
> truth because lots of people around don't know it!
> The actual intellectual property on a chip, wether
> done by MTM's Peter Link, Herr Heinz Lehmann, Tom
> Schmalz, myself or whomever BELONGS TO ROBERT BOSCH
> A.G., not the actual tuner. Why is that? Because the
> chip contains 1) firmware or program code that affects
> the way the ECU interprets the data and 2) data or
> lookup tables that contain the values for ignition
> timing, fuel inejction corrections, intake air temp
> correction, oxygen sensor correction for WOT and part
> throttle and so on.
> A tuner never modifies the actual firmware part of a
> chip, only the lookup tables, and thus he couldn't
> ever claim any intellectual property on a chip's
> So basically, nothing except your morals could ever
> prevent you from making and selling copies of someone
> else's chips, but the point is that you won't ever
> know for what setup the chip is made and you risk to
> blow your engine. I've recently seen a chip sold in
> the US as a chip for a 2.5 Bar MAP but that was
> actually made for a 3.0 Bar. This way, the only
> problem is the lack of performance but the other way
> around the risk is to ruin your stock turbo... The
> copyright issue is also the reason why big names such
> as MTM sell their chip upgrades with coded sockets,
> but a coded socket isn't a problem for a very good
> quality eprom programmer, and oh yeah, there are also
> some very clever people out there who've found out
> that removing the 3B ECU's sockets (ALL 3B ECUs have
> socketed chips from the factory, this is written in an
> official document I have at home from Bosch) and
> soldering the chips in (sometimes even glueing them to
> the PCB) was a very nice way of avoiding having other
> people find out what they use in their chips (I can
> only say it's not their own chips). I won't go any
> further by provinding names and such because it isn't
> fair to say publicly the unfair things others do,
> especially when I don't do such things myself. :-)
Well, I was imagining that if someone had a chip that was working for a known configuration, say a stock 3B motor for example, it seems like the tables for that chip could be copied onto the tables of another chip for another stock car.
Also, I guess if something like the exhaust manifold and turbo are upgraded (to RS2 for example), that if the software isn't remapped to take advantage of the new configuration that it will not necessarily be harmful since the software will still control parameters and keep them within the safety limits of the previous setup. If anything, doing something like this will result in the new upgraded hardware being underutilized. Would this be a correct statement?
> > I understand the chip mods for 3B's consist of a
> > pressure transducer upgrade from 2.0 bar
> > to 2.5 or 3.0 bar, and two eproms.
> > I read that Mihnea is programming his own chips,
> > which is one thing that is interesting.
> > What else I find interesting is burning chips with
> > known programs. Is that possible?
> What do you mean with "known programs"? The whole
> point about programming the chips isn't the software
> one is using in order to modify the maps, but knowing
> what the data looks like, where it is (depends on ECU
> types and software versions) and knowing how to alter
> the various parameters in order to get a good result.
> The software one uses in order to do that has nothing
> to do with reprogramming as one can use just about any
> hex editor software when he knows what to modify and
> how. Before having the software I now have, I used to
> use a simple hex editor and excel in order to do
> spreadsheets with the maps, and I have done chips like
> that for a few months before having my current hex
> editor and interpretor.
> Then, some people in the US might know where are the
> modified areas in a chip but I am almost 100% positive
> *no one* in the US has access to the original Bosch
> data in order to see real-world values for what
> they're modifying. Just ask any US chip vendor how
> many degrees (BTDC) is the ignition timing correction
> programmed at 19 and 42 degrees Celsius for a "stage
> 1" 3B chip and you'll see for yourself how much the
> famous and reputable US vendors know about their
> stuff. The only exception *might* be Hoppen because
> MTM *might* give him that information if he requests
> it. I for one can tell exactly how my chips are
> programmed and what values they contain if there's
> need for such information. Of course, there's nothing
> bad for these people to resell other people's chips
> but then they should resell them for cheaper than they
> do and for some of them, they should also stop
> claiming it's *their own* chips when it's not!
I should have written "known maps". By that I meant if someone had some maps that were for a known pressure transducer and fuel pressure and type of turbo, could those be copied onto another chip for a car configured similarly. I think you have confirmed that this is possible, with the only caveat being the two cars need to be configured the same.
> > Also, it seems like the 3.0 bar pressure transducers
> > are used in upgrades that tend to have
> > more torque but the same horsepower (using the same
> > hardware, namely a stock K24) as
> > the upgrades using the 2.5 bar transducers. I take
> > that to mean that the turbo is cranking
> > out more hp at lower rpms and is backed off as the
> > rpms increases to keep the turbo from
> > running out of breath.
> Correct, a 3.0 Bar sensor only has the advantage of
> providing with more torque (because of the increased
> boost pressure that the ECU can measure and therefore
> control) but the HP a stock K24 can give is limited by
> its physical limits, which is about 280-285 HP
> depending on the fuel and the ambient temps. Any more
> than that and the turbo can simply blow up in smoke,
> in 200 or 20.000 miles...
> > What sensor are most people on the list using, the
> > 2.5 or the 3.0 bar transducer? Is this
> > translatable to a certain tuners chips?
> I dunno and I'll let the others answer this one but
> one thing is certain, Bosch doesn't publicly sell the
> 2.0, 2.5 and 3.0 Bar transducers anymore.
I may be getting a 3.0 bar transducer ahead of actually chipping the car to make sure I have one to use. For this reason, it would be nice if there are some folks that are using the 3.0 bar transducer in their setups, so I can ask some questions.
> >Who's software does ECS use?
> I think ECS is using MTM software but I'm not sure.
> Simply go and ask them or whomever in the US a 3B chip
> for the following hardware upgrades: 7A cams, RS2
> exhaust manifold, AAN intake manifold, RS2 injectors
> with 5 Bar fuel pressure (stock 3B is 3Bar), a K26 #8
> hot side, K27 compressor housing with a K29 compressor
> wheel and a huge front mount IC. I am ready to bet my
> engine that they won't be able to supply such software
> and won't be able to modify your ECU in real time on a
> dyno for the aforementioned hardware setup. This
> provides you with a nice answer in case you wonder if
> someone does their own software in the US :-)
I understand your point that U.S. tuners that can provide mapping for one-off configurations would be few or none. I'm not as concerned about that at this stage. My main concern is to know how important a 3.0 bar transducer is, and what "canned" software is established and available for this sensor and a stock configuration. Beyond that, perhaps an upgraded turbo and EM with the same sensor.
> Hope this helps and sorry for saying the truth out
> loud, I guess some people will hate me now...
It does help and thank you. I don't really know who would be hating you, unless we have some chip tuners lurking on this list. Even those who have paid big $$ for their chips are probably happy with the peace of mind that things are not likely to blow up on them.
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