Motronic vs. alternatives[was Re: MC-1 MC-2 - Block any difference?]

Ben Swann benswann at
Tue Feb 24 11:00:26 EST 2004

I don't beleive Motronic was designed exlusively for 4 or 5 valve per
cylinder engines.  Surely this is one of the better designed EFI systems out
there, at least for its day.   I don't know what your friend is doing to try
to get hes system right.  There are those who can't seem to get CIS right
either, and those like myself who have been able to get it working well,
even when the power requirements were higher than the stock engine.

I also don't understand exactly what the major difference is going to be in
the 10V vs. 20V with respect to air fuel mixture.  Perhaps someone can give
me a better explanation than that of cost and citing examples of those who
tried and couldn't get it right.  I know if I had to build it from scratch,
Motronic would not be an option, but I have sourced the system for a very
reasonable cost.

I don't believe using Motronic would be considered re-inventing the wheel,
in my opinion it is just the opposite.

If I continue to follow your logic to its end, I'd be ditching the Motronic
system in my 200Q20V avant.  I currently have several chip setups to choose
from and can make changes as necessary should the need dictate.  Right now
my 200Q20V is Running quite happily with Motronic at  higher boost than
stock and the car is so fast I've had no desire to go to 3Bar.

Again,  what is the real reason that Motronic isn't good for a 2 valve per
cylinder engine.  I expect to be getting similar flow out of my engine as
that of a stock 20V.  Is there a problem with sequential fuel injection for
the 10V?  Is there a problem with the stock injector flow rate?  Is there
simply a problem with the parameters that are programmed into the Motronic
chips for one specific engine that will make it not optimal for an engine
with different compression and flow?  Is it simply a matter of the system
was being pushed outside of its design parameters.

I'm not hung up on using Motronic, but it does seem to be the best thing  I
could source for the money.  As a side note, I am considering going straight
to Megasquirt, as by the time I get the engine completed, sequential
injection will be fully available, or I can just implement batch if
sequential is the problem.  If I could have sourced the 034EFI for twice
what I'm paying for the Motronic setup, I might have considered it.  I must
say Javad has a great product from what I understand.  I just want control
of the code and schematics for any non-stock system that I implement.  I
don't think Javad is ready to offer his product available on the open
consorcium basis that MS is available for.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Aaron Gibson" <crankshaft at>
To: "Ben Swann" <benswann at>
Cc: <JShadzi at>; <jeg1976 at>; <quattro at>
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: MC-1 MC-2 - Block any difference?

> Hey,
> I think Javad is very right on this subject. A friend tried the same
> combination and he never seem to get it right (motronic in 10V). Why
> re-invent the wheel? Why use the factory system when the
> parts are expensive? With 034 you can use pretty much any TPS,. 4kq
> water temp sensor $14,
> 95 VW Golf intake MAT sensor $18, Bosch 3 wire sensor $29, 4KQ Dist (034
> IIb system)free,etc,etc,etc. Unless you feel like buying $200 Mass
> Airflow sensors. In the long run
> it will be cheaper and easier. What happens if you have an ECU
> problem...goodluck$$$$$$.
> Unless your getting sponsored by Band-Aid?
> AG
> Ben Swann wrote:
> >Javad,
> >
> >I do expect to have to do some datalogging and tweaking of the maps if I
use Motronic.  I also understand that the system is rather adaptive at least
at lower power levels.  My initial thrust will be getting an engine that
works fine under 300HP using among other things a complete Motronic system I
picked up rather economically.
> >
> >Once I get the engine working at lower HP, I do have some resources
available to help me develop appropriate chip for the specific engine
characteristics.  At that point I will indeed need to come up with more
optimal maps and probably larger injectors for start.  I feel this is better
than starting with the CIS setup I was going to use.  I also think that if
Motronic doesn't cut it in the end due to  its complexity and that the code
is somewhat proprietary and difficult to crack, I can use what I have as a
good base to control with a variation on Megasquirt or other system
available - perhaps even yours.
> >
> >Ben
> >  ----- Original Message ----- 
> >  From: JShadzi at
> >  To: benswann at ; jeg1976 at ; quattro at
> >  Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 10:04 PM
> >  Subject: Re: MC-1 MC-2 - Block any difference?
> >
> >
> >  Ben, the 3B Motronic system, like any other factory management system,
is developed for an _engine system_, in this case the 3B 20v I5 with given
turbo, sensors/inputs, airflow input (including intercooler, manifold,
piping, exh. manifold), etc.
> >
> >  The 3B Motronic works wonderfully in the stock application, obviously,
but in the 10v you can definitely feel that the programming is slightly off.
Once you start changing turbos, intercoolers, this and that, and really
start pushing the boost and power, the Motrinic system does not like it.
Throwing "chips" at it doesn't help the situation, and by the time you
realize this, who knows how much money you'll have thrown at it.
> >
> >  About 5 years ago, during much of the development of the 034efi system,
I worked on 2 projects to put the 3B Motronic system on the 10v, this was my
experience, and further confirmed the need for the Stage II systems I have
available now.  The harder you push the motor, the more trouble you'll have
with it.
> >
> >  You may or may not see my opinion/experience in a "sincere light", but
that's the best advice I can give you.  I'd like to hear anyone else's
experience with installing the 3B Motronic system in a modified 10vt, for
the varied feedback.
> >
> >  Ben, my question to you is, what makes you think it _will_ work?
> >
> >  Javad
> >
> >  In a message dated 2/23/2004 3:10:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
benswann at writes:
> >    Javad,
> >
> >    Why do you say not Motronic in a 10V?
> >
> >    Ben
> >    ----- Original Message ----- 
> >    From: <JShadzi at>
> >    To: "Ben Swann" <benswann at>; """Jim Green"""
<jeg1976 at>;
> >    <quattro at>
> >    Cc: "Ben Swann" <benswann at>
> >    Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 2:42 PM
> >    Subject: Re: MC-1 MC-2 - Block any difference?
> >
> >
> >    > Ben, just to be real clear on this issue (cause its close to my
> >    *and I'm not saying you implied this*, but... I don't tune for big
dyno #'s,
> >    big dyno #'s are the result of a powerful, well tuned car.  Any
advice you
> >    get from me will be in the context of reliable, smooth, everyday
power, and
> >    as much of it as you like (ie: the intended application or result of
> >    project).
> >    >
> >    > I commuted 60 miles a day in my 80tq for 3 years, 400hp and all,
and got
> >    near 30mpg, never left me stranted once.
> >    >
> >    > Again, not saying you accused me of tuning for "sloppy power", but
> >    a 400hp 10v run smooth everyday isn't too difficult with the right
> >    management system (ie: not 3B Motronic, in a 10v anyway) and some
> >    to detail.
> >    >
> >    > With that said, it doesn't sound like you're shooting for the moon
> >    power, so I'd recommend the MC2 for you, because it will perform
better in
> >    the range of power/use you're looking for.  A pinging motor is
"sloppy" to
> >    me, so if you wanted to run 20+psi boost, then the MC2 may become
more and
> >    more "sloppy", esp. w/o the right octange fuel or engine management
> >    >
> >    > And, IME, water injection will only take you so far, there is
nothing like
> >    the proper octane fuel for the application.
> >    >
> >    > 3B - 9.3:1
> >    > MC2 - 8.4:1
> >    >
> >    > Javad
> >_______________________________________________
> >quattro mailing list
> >quattro at
> >
> >
> >
> >

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