WAS: advise or help needed >> now Project Execution and Strategy

JShadzi at aol.com JShadzi at aol.com
Fri Feb 22 02:05:37 EST 2002


You asked for a reality check below... <<grin, grin>>  I am replying to the
list because I think we can all learn something from this...

Well, can't say I have been ignoring your progress (or journey fwiw), I've
been watching with interest...frankly you have a ton of energy, more that I
have.  Early on you were considering a CIS swap, then talk of efi started,
and I think that is where you got in trouble.

Not that EFI is bad, God knows I've had a great time with it, but I believe
you over-anticipate problems, try to implement solutions on 2nd and 3rd
levels, end up over-complicating the whole thing, with no real knowledge or
experience of your own to fall back on.

I was basiclly at a similar point you were a few years ago, initially
exploring EFI and replacing the CIS fuel system with something programmable.
Because of the resources I have available to me, and contacts I have in the
industry (real engineers and such) I was able to develop 034efi to the point
where I could commute 50 miles a day with it, make over 300+hp with it, and
now be able to offer it to others for their cars, and yes, their cars start
and run really well.

The secret??  Well, its the vaunted theory of K.I.S.S. (keep it simple
stupid) - generally speaking.

Granted, there are always better ways to accomplish a project, or
increasingly better goals for a project, but the sucessful "project manager"
has a vision for the results of a specific project, draws limits, has a
strategy, a budget, sticks to the criteria, modifies as needed, but overall
takes managable steps towards progression and  NEVER overcomplicating the
process or especially setting goals that are outside the resources available
to him.

Less than a month or so ago you were planning a relatively simple, well
documented turbo conversion... which has now turned into a very complex,  EFI
project with never implemented system, and now I hear talk of going 20v to
boot!  You are taking on a lot of modifications at once, most of which are
outside your scope and ability (hey, we all have our limits in this area,
just on different levels)

Let me give you a little history on how my project 80tq has progressed over
the last 2 years:

Stage 1: Chassis including Coilovers, Big Red Brakes, F/R swaybar
modifications, delrin bushings, wheels/tires, etc.

Stage 2: Turbo conversion keeping intact stock CIS3 fuel system with MC2 long

Stage 3:  034efi testing and installation including upgraded intercooler,
throttle body,and intake manifold.

Stage 4:  Custom 10v tube header and T3/T4E turbo.

Planned Stage 5:  20v head conversion, 2.45l stroker bottom end, cusom intake
and exh. manifolds.

So, you can see that I have attempted to take manageable steps in the
progression of my project.  This is critical, becuase when I bought the car
originally, I knew I wanted EFI in it, but I went through the process of
doing the CIS turbo conversion to become more intimate with the working
systems within the car.  You can't move forward if you don't know where you
are (do I hear a country song coming??).

Anyway, I'll get off the pulpit now, not trying to be a jerk, but I've sent a
few emails like this to other listers lately, and figured maybe we could all
hear it.

I haven't addressed any of your specific efi questions, if there is anything
you feel I can help you with, contact me directly.  You're familiar with
034efi, though, so I figure repeating what I did to make it a working system
is redundant at ths point.



<< Hello,

 My efi project is pretty much stalled.  Motor is a MC-1 with
 MAC11B setup/pieces, efi ecu is LinkPlus, car is an '85 4ksq.

 I'm waiting for myself to acquire tools and skills to get information
 about the stock ignition system triggers.

 This is even for an implementation using the standard, cam-driven
 hall sensor output for the sync signal.  Not with my more
 complicated and even less likely-to-happen idea to create a circuit
 to incorporate both the crank reference signal and the hall sensor.

 [That other tangental project seems to entail understanding analog
 to TTL signal conditioning (to eliminate "ringing" and other noise,
 apparently), and other stuff.  I have no skills or experience in this
 area at all, and others have been less than totally responsive to my
 questions, which is understandable (although the courtesy of a
 reply "at all" to my inquiries, even perhaps telling me to "learn it
 myself", or "go screw myself", if that is what the sentiment really
 is, is preferable to me than no reply "at all", fellow enthusiasts).  Of
 course, none of this is important to anyone else except me, so
 what do I expect.]

 Anyways...  I'd still like to hear from anyone who might think of
 themselves as helpful, that has an understanding of some of these
 questions I have.

 So, I'm faced with backing off that effort, and need to focus on the
 difficult-enough-for-me requirement for me to understand the stock
 sensor outputs.  Actually, I would probably need to understand
 them even if I was continuing to push for my circuit idea.

 I very possibly could be working with incorrect understanding or
 assumptions.  This is what I have to do, as far as I know:

 I need to understand the output of the hall sensor, relative to crank
 location.  Apparently this entails the use of many items that I don't
 have possession of or experience with their use.  My current
 understanding, from emails and postings, is that the hall sensor
 output is normally "high" (at 5 volts?) and "low output" window is 40
 degrees wide, and this window is centered (when the distributor is
 indexed where it should be) on the flywheel pin location of 62
 degrees BTDC.  One specific clarification I would like is whether
 this is on the 360 scale of the crank, or is it on the 360 scale of the
 distributor itself.  I would imagine that it is the crank, but since I
 can't measure jack-sh!t currently, I can't confirm anything.

 In order to determine physical TDC accurately, it seems I need a
 dial indicator and a suitable mounting base, to make direct contact
 with the piston to find where it is located.  I need help here, both
 with locating and choosing the correct tool, and with learning to
 use it properly.

 In order to determine crank position, I also apparently need to
 locate and learn to use a degree wheel.  These items apparently
 get attached to either a crank pulley or the flywheel, and tell you
 how far you are rotating the engine.

 In order to measure the output of the hall sensor, I need to possess
 and use an oscilloscope.  I can follow directions if I have them.  At
 this time, I haven't analyzed which wires to hook up to the meter
 (that I don't have).  I need to acquire some different testing leads,
 so that I can probe things without cutting into them, I suppose.

 I think that's all I need.  It's what I get for trying to do something
 myself without any resources.  I'm a bit discouraged, but only
 because of the amount of time this is all taking.

 I'd love to hear that I'm wrong about how complicated this is, and
 that there is either some other way to get the information I need.
 For example, it was said that SJM's site had the o-scope
 waveforms of the hall sensor.  I didn't find that, I only found the rpm
 and timing reference sensors output waveforms.  Does anyone
 know where I can find a waveform of a hall sensor output?

 I'm trying to come up with a solution for standalone engine
 management for a 5 cylinder turbo application, using stock
 sensors, for a reasonable price.  That's not even totally accurate.
 The solution exists already, I just need to provide some data to the
 manufacturer.  I would think this is something that would be a good
 thing, but it feels like a party of one.

 If anyone has the ability to measure the output of the hall sensor,
 and is willing to do so, will you please contact me or post to the
 list?  Maybe that's what I should ask?

 Or, maybe someone will flame me and/or give me a reality check
 on my thought process here.  I have gotten plenty of negative
 emails, saying not to bother with efi, or that it won't work, or
 whatever other negative opinions that people feel strongly enough
 about to send an email to express.

 At the moment, I'm at a low point in how excited and enthusiastic I
 am for my projects.  This kinda sucks.  But I guess it's only
 because I'm trying to do something that I almost can't.  For me, I've
 always wanted to "grow" into whatever person has the skills and
 knowledge to get something done, whatever it is.  I figure, I have all
 my fingers and eyeballs and a brain and all the stuff that the other
 people have that know how to do things, so there's no reason that
 by determination and effort (and time! a big one) I shouldn't be able
 to bring myself up to speed to also know how or have the skill to do

 Btw, I have a bunch of beginner electronics books from Radio
 Shack.  But what I really need to know is mid-level stuff, without
 knowing the whole damn history of the transistor, if you know what
 I mean.  I mean it helps, but only so very little.

 It's just all taking so much freaking time...

 Thanks for reading.


 Ken >>

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