[s-cars] troubleshooting no-start

Tom Green trgreen at comcast.net
Sat May 31 09:22:38 PDT 2008

I apologize for leaving off the subject line on my post.  Since no one
else will fix it, let's try this.

I was just sending this answer to Calvin, when Brooke posted his own
brand of engineering psychology.  :-)

Now we want the quantitative analysis approach.  This is too logical,  
the philosophical approach (even if this part is working now, better  
it because it will quit soon) is so much fun.  :-)

Don't forget that this is a DIY project where most don't have a full  
range of
diagnostic equipment in their home garage or overnight availability of
replacement parts without incurring substantial additional cost.  If  
you are
relegated to having parts in hand before starting the job because you  
the car tomorrow, then replacing the parts because they are there can
make sense.  If the engine starts after replacing the FPR, you can infer
that it didn't have sufficient pressure.

Then, you just have to deal with the issue of reliability.  Was it an
intermittent problem with the pump?  A pressure check might not have  
that either.

Then you are left with a session at Dr. Forgie's engineering philosophy
class "If it ain't broke, it soon will be" or "changing your fuel  
pump on the
roadside can be fun-not".

B.S. aside, there is a good case to be made for the basic approach.   
difficult to diagnose an intermittent problem if the vehicle doesn't  
run, at
least intermittently.  :-)

I thought there were other WI listers, perhaps just not quite so far  
in the
woods.  A similar-minded friend to share special equipment and labor is
a good way to make things more affordable.


On May 31, 2008, at 9:53 AM, Brooke Fairbanks wrote:

> Sage advice Calvin...
> An additional issue I have is that I live in Bum-F-Wisconsin where  
> logging
> trucks and rusted-out pick-up trucks rule the road.  Local  
> mechanic's tool
> boxes consist of duct tape, a BFH and many Phillips screw drivers  
> (the vodka
> kind).  I don't have easy-squeezey access to many of the tools  
> required to
> diagnose the many maladies these fine automobiles may have.  I  
> realize that
> a fuel pressure gauge is fairly benign, but I unfortunately don't  
> have quick
> access to this tool or many of the others required to properly  
> maintain my
> GrS6 fleet.  I have over the many years acquired or cobbled  
> together close
> facsimiles, but alas, not all.  Perhaps I should revert back to  
> driving a 71
> Pinto or 74 Fox, but I'm rather enamored with boost in conjunction  
> with AWD.
> I could swap out the FP from my other comatose (burnt valve) GrS6 and
> perhaps temporarily solve the issue, but that would be  
> asinine... ...I would
> prefer to only once have to curl up in the fetal position in the  
> S6's boot
> to R&R the FP.
> I've ordered a new FP, FPR and six meters of vacuum hose... ...with  
> luck
> (and the help of this knowledgeable list) I can get the gumby green  
> GrS6
> back to AWD drifting around the many gravel "roads" of NW Wisconsin.
> As side note, I greatly appreciate everyone's assistance &  
> advice... ...my
> post has tinge of frustration, but it is induced by my current mode of
> transportation:  1998 Oldsmobile Silhouette mini van w/ 204K  
> rounds.  This
> steaming knoll of scat has sucked every last molecule of  
> testosterone from
> my soul and I'm desperate to getting the Audi back on the road.
> Thanks again and have a great weekend!
> Brooke Fairbanks
> -----Original Message-----
> From: calvinlc at earthlink.net [mailto:calvinlc at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 12:39 AM
> To: Tom Green; Brooke Fairbanks
> Cc: 'Jeff Postupack'; 's-car-list'
> Subject: RE: [s-cars] (no subject)
> Let's get back to basics.  Spark and fuel are needed to fire the  
> engine.
> Narrowing down which is not working is the first order.  In my  
> opinion, the
> easiest thing to do is to put a fuel pressure gauge on the car  
> while you are
> trying to crank and see if it is reaching about 60 psi.  If it is not
> reaching above 45 psi or so then there is a high probability that  
> it is fuel
> delivery.  I had my FPR go out and it caused a no-start issue,  
> although
> after letting the pump run for about 1 minute by cycling the key on/ 
> off it
> would finally fire.  Get a fuel pressure gauge on it and stop the
> speculation.
> --Calvin
> -----Original Message-----
> From: s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com
> [mailto:s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com]On Behalf Of Tom Green
> Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:04 PM
> To: Brooke Fairbanks
> Cc: 'Jeff Postupack'; 's-car-list'
> Subject: Re: [s-cars] (no subject)
> Ok Brooke, I'll stop trying to be cute, and proofread as well.
> Like it or not, DIY is the only practical solution to URS-6
> ownership.  The
> dealer network has almost no 5-cyl expertise left, and yes that is
> important.
> Even if you have one of the few shops near you that does have this
> special
> knowledge, you have to know enough the manage the required service and
> tell the shop what you need.  That's why we are all here.
> I would have to be 100% convinced it is not a fuel problem before
> moving on.
> Starting with the FPR, vacuum lines that control it and other things,
> and the fuel
> filter is ok since they need looking at or replacing anyway, but I
> believe you will
> be in the tank after the pump eventually.  I don't subscribe to the
> finite life theory
> of 100K but if you are having these problems and can't find the cure,
> perhaps it
> is time.
> If you feel the pump is working ok it could well be the FPR dumping
> pressure
> right back to the tank or the filter blocking it there.  Those things
> have happened.
> ECStuning.com is selling them cheap.
> In all your list of previous work done, there is no mention of any
> DTC's.  Have
> you checked for trouble codes?  I don't expect much help here but
> even the
> absence is some help.
> Tom
> On May 30, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Brooke Fairbanks wrote:
>> Thanks for ideas... ...and yes Mr. Green, the problem is
>> unfortunately real
>> and no, I don't particularly enjoy mashing my knuckles against
>> "ginsu" sharp
>> engine bits.  It's that I'm galacticly frugal.
>> As for the fuel pump, it was my understanding that they either  
>> work or
>> don't; that must not be the case.  When I checked the pump
>> operation, I was
>> rather impressed with the volume; kind like a frat boy at a
>> kegger.  But I'm
>> "running" out of options... ...I could also swap out the ECU??
>> Should I also check the pump at the FPR and further down stream
>> from the
>> filter?
>> Brooke Fairbanks
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tom Green [mailto:trgreen at comcast.net]
>> Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 12:17 PM
>> To: s-car-list; bfairbanks at fnbbarron.com
>> Cc: Jeff Postupack; Wylie Bean
>> Subject:
>> Is this a test, Posto, or a real problem?  :-)   Come on, "it tries
>> to start/catch".
>> Wylie certainly has it nailed as a fuel problem.  You can mess with
>> the FPR or the filter,
>> but if you are serious, just go to the pump.  If you are going to dig
>> it out, just replace it,
>> since you probably won't feel like doing this again real soon.
>> Brooks must enjoy working on the S6 from looking at the things he has
>> done already, so
>> might as well replace the fuel filter and pressure regulator, and all
>> the vacuum lines. They
>> probably need replacing since they haven't been mentioned yet.  :-)
>> Tom
>>> Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 12:05:21 -0400
>>> From: <theringmeister at triad.rr.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [s-cars] Let's rally to help a fellow S-car owner in
>>> 	troubleshooting Hell in Wisconsin !
>>> To: "Postupack, Jeff" <Jeff.Postupack at analog.com>
>>> Cc: bfairbanks at fnbbarron.com, s-car-list at audifans.com
>>> Message-ID:
>>> 	<15538653.1443891212163521935.JavaMail.root at hrndva-web19-z02>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>> I'm going to bet it's the fuel pump or garbage in the filter at the
>>> bottom of the pump itself.
>>> The pump may be working but not quite at the level it should be. I
>>> went through this back in Nov/Dec.  I never thought a fuel pump
>>> could die a slow death, but mine did. If there's over 100K on it
>>> then it's gonna need changin' soon anyway, right DAVE?!?
>>> --
>>> Wylie Bean
>>> TheRingmeister at triad.rr.com
>>> 90 cq
>>> 91 90q20v sport
>>> 92 UrS4
>>> 01 allroad
>>> ---- "Postupack wrote:
>>>> Brook needs the collective assist of  Tha List!
>>>> Read on:  I sold Brook a new CPS a while back. he thought that  
>>>> might
>>>> cure his no-start.  Here's today's story.
>>>> Not running, but it tries to start/catch... ...I believe I
>>>> verified that
>>>> the speed sensor pin is still on the flywheel.  I pulled the  
>>>> sensors
>>>> with the engine @ TDC and viewed a square pin through the opening.
>>>> This is the synopsis of my struggles:
>>>> *	With a half tank of fuel and driving the 95 S6 w/ 129K miles,
>>>> the engine hesitates/stumbles then dies.  It refires, but runs
>>>> poorly
>>>> then dies.
>>>> *	With the car back home, I swap the crank speed sensors from my
>>>> other S6 and still a no start condition.
>>>> *	Compression is high of 135 and a low of 125 across the
>>>> cylinders.
>>>> *	I swap out the old POS units with known to be working POS units
>>>> and still a no start condition.
>>>> *	I swap out the old coils with a 034 ignition loom with 5 new
>>>> 1.8t coils and still a no start condition.
>>>> *	I by-passed the fuel pump relay to check the fuel pump function
>>>> and it appears to pump fine from the filter line (I did not
>>>> measure the
>>>> exact volume or measure from the fuel pressure regulator or the
>>>> injectors)  I checked to make certain it was fuel, not fuel/water
>>>> coming
>>>> from the tank.
>>>> *	I spliced in a super groovy CPS purchased from a very patient AW
>>>> forum user and still a no start condition.
>>>> *	I replaced the fuel filter, spark plugs, crank seal, cam seal,
>>>> TB, serp belt, serp tensioner bearing, H2O pump, T-stat, triple
>>>> checked
>>>> the timing marks but did not install the radiator and still a no
>>>> start
>>>> condition.  (I have to return the Audi tools back to Force5 today)
>>>> What other causes could it be?
>>>> *	Plugged cats
>>>> *	Injectors
>>>> *	Bad karma
>>>>  "Brooke Fairbanks" <bfairbanks at fnbbarron.com>
>>>> Jeff Postupack
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