[torsen] Re: (T*rsen content warning): Some thoughts on traction - kinda long

Jani.Peltopuro at poyry.fi Jani.Peltopuro at poyry.fi
Thu Nov 30 10:38:02 EST 2000


thanks for the response. I do agree that Audi has left the quattro as a 
cash cow without any real new development for a long time. IMO Haldex is 
not counted, since it is VW technology for transverse engined cars, at 
least so far. I also think, having read the interviews, that too much 
emphasis was put on straight line performance. I could surely loose a 
little straight traction to gain better control in corners.

What I like about the T-cars handling compared to the 90f/10r VC's is that 
initially as you get slip, you get it in the back too. In my view this is 
logical,when you have50f/50 and 60% weight front, 40 rear, the rear will 
break loose too. What happens after that, well it does sometimes turn from 
oversteer to understeer, and vice versa. If you manage to get it sliding 
when entering the corner, then balance it on the throttle (needing minimal 
steering) you will have a nice exit, balanced oversteer is what I'd 
decribe it. In some conditions its hard. 

The VC cars I have experience of were worse. You would always first have 
slip at the front, then youd get more torque rear, never enough for more 
than a moment of oversteer. This meant really miserable handling, IMO. 
These cars had 85-90% front torque normally.

The greatest handling road 4wd car I've ever sat in was Escort Cosworth. 
It had 55/44 weight distribution, 34f/66 torque split. Shame about the 
quality and badge. It uses VC. 

The single greatest 10 minutes of my driving ever was done with a Audi 100 
(c4) 2.8 quattro. The road was a deserted,dead end non-paved road, and it 
had 10 cm of fresh snow on top of packed snow. Studded tyres, no one had 
driven in it before me, so there would be no one coming to the other 
direction, it was dark.  On this surface the car was neutral to oversteery 
on throttle. Plus NA engine with immediate responce, still makes me smile. 
Then when the snow is wet, it can just struggle, understeer, then snap 

The RS2 is surprisingly good even on dry tarmac. Sure it understeers, but 
be a little more aggressive, and the rear comes along too. It sort of 
oversteers 2-4 degrees(don't correct though, no need). If you go in too 
hot, and have to lift off, it oversteers, but won't bite you. Drive it 
wrong and it just understeers like a pig,or should I say an S2. 

Porsche has tweaked the roll bars, another of your favorites. The front is 
32 mm and the rear is 16 mm. Also the shocks are different from S2. It 
makes a world of difference.

Having followed the suspension/torsen discussion from the sidelines, my 
opinion differs from yours on the roll bars, and suspension travel in/out. 
You said there should be equal amount of travel out and in. You also said 
no no to rear roll bar, because of wheel lift. I see these problems 
interrelated. If you don't have enough travel out, then you will have 
lifting wheels, which is not good. This would happen if you are cornering 
hard, using almost all travel, then there is a small pothole on the 
inside, the inside wheel will lift. Not so likely if you have more travel 
out. RS2 has about 3xin-travel out front, 2xin-travel rear. And I'd never 
loose the rear roll bar.


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