[urq] Fuel Pump surge - still having problems

Thu Apr 17 05:53:50 PDT 2008

Mike,

I am trying o avoid cutting up the fuel tank - the most restrictive part of the supply
line is integrated into the tank.  

The system even cavitates at idle or when the engine not running - fuel pump jumpered
on.  Has always been a little noisy, regardless of pump, despite that the tank is
completely clear of any sediment and the fuel sock appears to be new.

Have you done anything special with regard to you 20V conversion - I assume you are
using Motronic on yours.  What is your system pressure?  Are you using an accumulator of
any sort?

Surge tank does make a lot of sense as it can take in fuel at a more leisurely pace and
then output very quickly  - more of a buffer.  

Ben

  _____  

From: Mike Sylvester [mailto:mike at urq20v.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 7:35 AM
To: Ben Swann
Subject: RE: [urq] Fuel Pump surge - still having problems

I don't see how that "surge tank" really helps you.

Your fuel tank is a really big "surge tank".

Since this system has a constant flow due to the pressure regulator and return line, it
should cavitate all the time.

Does your fuel pressure stay constant?  Or is the pressure dropping in high demand
situations?

It doesn't seem to me that raising the system pressure can help.  The engine needs a
certain amount of fuel flow regarless of the pressure.

A higher pressure just means that the injectors are open less but the same amount of
fuel per second flows through them.  

If the pump can not supply the flow, the system pressure will drop.

I think the best solution would be to increase the size of the supply line.  That is a
much simpler solution than the extra pump and tank.

Mike

 <http://www.urq20v.com/> www.urq20v.com

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [urq] Fuel Pump surge - still having problems
From: "Ben Swann" <benswann at verizon.net>
Date: Thu, April 17, 2008 12:16 am
To: "'Louis-Alain Richard'" <larichard at plguide.com>,
<urq at pacbell.net>,  <urq at audifans.com>, <quattro at audifans.com>
Cc: 'Ben Swann' <benswann at verizon.net>

Well that is what the pressure regulator should be doing. The regulator is set for
around 45 PSI whereas on CIS system pressure is usually over 60 PSI. I can tune the EFI
to accommodate the higher pressure - would actually result in more power too.
Essentially what you say that I'm "flowing way too much fuel to return it to the pump
unused" is how it is done usually. If not I'd like to know.

Still - I'd like to find out how to keep the cavitation from happening. I may give the
line configuration one more try. I can run some even bigger line, perhaps a hard line
with large ID - right now is rubber line with 5/8 ID - should flow fine right, but at
some point during running, the fuel starts to bubble and cavitate during running. There
is no vacuum on the tank, so that is not what is happening, but I do notice it seems to
happen more as the tank goes to below 1/2 - still a lot of fuel in the tank tho.

If anyone knows of a good setup available that uses a low pressure pump into a small
reservoir aka. "surge tank" which then feeds slightly pressurized fuel into the main
high pressure pump, please let me know. I'd rather not have to fabricate something, but
here is a setup I found that describes what I'm after:
 <http://www.sdsefi.com/techsurge.htm> http://www.sdsefi.com/techsurge.htm

Also, if anyone has encountered and resolved this problem I describe I'd like to hear.
Maybe someone has done an EFI system like mine that uses stock tank feed and not having
the problem.

It sure would be nice to have this resolved - I'd like to take this car to Carlisle this
year! So close, but it just isn't right yet.

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: Louis-Alain Richard [mailto:larichard at plguide.com <> ] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 10:45 PM
To: 'Ben Swann'; urq at pacbell.net <> ; urq at audifans.com <> ; quattro at audifans.com <> 
Subject: RE: [urq] Fuel Pump surge - still having problems

Ben,

Maybe you can install a restriction on the return hose so the all the
circuit will be pressurized from the pump to the restriction but with less
flow overall ? 

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't imagine that a tuned engine would
burn more fuel than what can be provided by a fully functional stock system
(the tank and its output and vent pipes). So if your pump is "faster" than
what the tank can provide, hence the cavitation, it must mean that you're
flowing way too much fuel just to return it to the tank unused.

Louis-Alain

-----Message d'origine-----
De : urq-bounces at audifans.com <>  [mailto:urq-bounces at audifans.com <> ] De la part
de Ben Swann
Envoye : 16 avril 2008 16:47
A : urq at pacbell.net <> ; urq at audifans.com <> ; quattro at audifans.com <> 
Cc : 'Ben Swann'
Objet : Re: [urq] Fuel Pump surge - still having problems

Steve,

Let's just say, I have enough evidence that this is basically cavitation
going into the
pump. You can visually see what is going on. I have no doubt that
basically the pump
is drawing faster than can be supplied from the tank. I have been over this
and ruled
in and out many things. There are times when I have been able to
temporarily eliminate
the problem too - basically allowing an open feed into the pump - similare
to your
suggestion of using a test tank.

As you mention below, CIS keeps a constant system pressure, and that is
higher than the
system pressure I'm using. The difference is EFI tends to be more of a
higher flow,
lower pressure as CIS tends to keep the system pressure high and flow not
that great.
This is one reason I think raising my system pressure may help. But I still
think I
need some sort of buffer - eg. Surge tank or really big pressure
accumulator.

I was doing some research and this appears to be a pretty common problem -
more with
converting from carburetor to EFI, but also got a lot of hits from CIS to
EFI - a lot
more of this going on with the older rabbits and such. There is a reason
all the later
cars went to an in-tank and or/ two pump system. 

I am 90% certain that the problem is pre-pump sucking/cavitation. Now I
need to find
the best solution.

Ben

[Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:20:30 -0700
From: "urq" <urq at pacbell.net <> >
Subject: Re: [urq] Fuel Pump surge - still having problems
To: <urq at audifans.com <> >
Message-ID: <02ea01c89fcd$07218b10$1564a130$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Man, it sucks to hear that your problem remains ... (pun intended)

A couple things come to mind ... 

* A low pressure system should be less prone to cavitate.

* It seems to me in the CIS situation that the pump supplies the same
amount of fuel at
all times, if you don't need as much as the pump provides the rest goes back
to the
tank. This would tend to speak against demand-based cavitation.

* I think many of the in tank pumps were added because the tank sits low
... a full
tank in an urq should have plenty of gravity behind it. I am assuming that
there's at
least a half a tank of fuel during the testing ...

* Have you let the pump run without impediment into an empty fuel
container? It seems
to me you would hear the most cavitation with the pump running open loop. 

You might want to try using a fuel container to feed the system for a test
... maybe
even better to get a fuel cell that you can sit in the trunk for a test. 

Steve B
San Jos?, CA (USA)

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