[Author Prev][Author Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Author Index][Thread Index]

Re: Dino juice (long)

This is from a recent discussion on the Autorace-List about oil
and might be of interest to some of you:

------------ Start included text------------------------------

>Date:    Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:02:19 EDT
>From:    "Robert Rosen, Army Research Lab, 301-394-5442" <robert@MSC.ARL.MIL>
>Subject: Oil Information (long)
>Due to all the recent discussion on oil, I decided to post
>this very informative article on oils.  It is a couple of
>years old but most of the info is still current.  It is long
>so if not interested, delete now.
>One interesting point, gear oil viscosities and motor oil
>viscosities are not measured on the same scale.  85W gear oil
>is about 30W motor oil.
>By request, here is a *very* informative post on oils, authored
>by Ed Hackett.
>Ed is a chemical engineer who works for the University of Nevada's
>Desert Research facility.  An earlier version of this article included
>some pretty disparaging information that suggests that oil additives
>such as Slick 50, Duralube, et al, are actually *harmful* to your
>From: edh@wheeler.unr.edu (Ed Hackett)
>Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles
>Subject: Re: Newbie Oil Question (Facts added)(long)
>Message-ID: <3263@equinox.unr.edu>
>Date: 2 Apr 92 19:33:31 GMT
>References: <1992Mar27.174355.19779@cupnews0.cup.hp.com>
>Sender: news@equinox.unr.edu
>Reply-To: edh@wheeler.unr.edu (Ed Hackett)
>Organization: Desert Research Institute, University of Nevada
>Lines: 301
>In article <1992Mar30.190612.16726@watdragon.waterloo.edu>
>rblander@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Robyn Landers) writes:
>>       Right, so where's Ed Hackett and his voluminous posting on oil
>>when we need him?  Please, Ed, stem the flow of speculation and
>>provide the factual additives to this discussion so we can filter
>>out the truth from the myths.
>I'm here, I'm here, our news feed has been a bit (a whole lot) flakey so
>I am just seeing the articles.  I hope this makes it out.
>First, I will answer a couple of questions asked by another.  Yes, it is
>OK to mix mineral and syntetic oils.  One of the early synthetics used
>was a Polyalkylene Glycol.  This was totally incompatable and would gel
>when mixed.  This has not been used for years for automotive
>lubrication.  All common syntetics used for engine lubrication now days
>are a Polyalphaolefin (Mobil 1) or a Dibasic Organic Ester type
>(AMSOIL).  These are fully compatable with conventional oils.  In fact
>Golden Spectro and AGIP Sint 2000 are mixtures of mineral and synthetic
>oils.  It is always best to mix oils with the same rating (SG).  This
>insures that the additive packages are compatable and will maintain
>their effectiveness.
>All engine oils use an organic Zinc compound as an extreme pressure/anti
>wear additive.  Spectro adds more to their Motorcycle oil than to the
>car oil because Zinc is a poison to catalytic converters.  You will also
>see that some "car" oil contains more than their motorcycle oil.  The
>difference in Zinc content between .11% and .16% is insignificant to the
>converter.  The little data I saw on the oils packaged by the motorcycle
>manufacturers indicated that they were no better than the top automotive
>oils.  While most were good, they didn't offer anything the cheaper oils
>do.  (They are in reality just repackaged and in some cases slightly
>reformulated top grade auto oils).
>The following is a slightly modified repost of my original article.
>I have added a few bits that address some FAQs.  (long)
>Choosing the best motor oil is a topic that comes up frequently in
>discussions between motoheads, whether they are talking about
>motorcycles or cars.  The following article is intended to help you make
>a choice based on more than the advertizing hype.
>Oil companies provide data on their oils most often refered to as
>"typical inspection data".  This is an average of the actual physical
>and a few common chemical properties of their oils.  This information is
>available to the public through their distributors or by writing or
>calling the company directly.  I have compiled a list of the most
>popular, premium oils so that a ready comparison can be made.  If your
>favorite oil is not on the list get the data from the distributor and
>use what I have as a data base.
>This article is going to look at six of the most important properties of
>a motor oil readily availiable to the public:  viscosity, viscosity
>index (VI), flash point, pour point, % sulfated ash, and % zinc.
>Viscosity is the measure of how thick an oil is.  This is the most
>important property for an engine.  An oil with too low a viscosity can
>shear and loose film strength at high temperatures.  An oil with too
>high a viscosity may not pump to the proper parts at low temperatures
>and the film may tear at high rpm.
>The weights given on oils are arbitrary numbers assigned by the S.A.E.
>(Society of Automotive Engineers).  These numbers correspond to "real"
>viscosity, as measured by several accepted techniques.  These
>measurements are taken at specific temperatures.  Oils that fall into a
>certain range are designated 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 by the S.A.E.  The W
>means the oil meets specifications for viscosity at 0 F and is therefore
>suitable for Winter use.
>The following chart shows the relationship of "real" viscosity to their
>S.A.E.  assigned numbers.  The relationship of gear oils to engine oils
>is also shown.
>|                                                             |
>|      SAE Gear Viscosity Number                              |
>|  ________________________________________________________   |
>|  |75W |80W  |85W|    90        |        140             |   |
>|  |____|_____|___|______________|________________________|   |
>|                                                             |
>|     SAE Crank Case Viscosity Number                         |
>|  ____________________________                               |
>|  |10| 20  | 30 | 40  |  50  |                               |
>|  |__|_____|____|_____|______|                               |
>2  4  6  8  10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26 28 30 32 34 36 38 40 42
>                 viscosity cSt @ 100 degrees C
>Multi viscosity oils work like this:  Polymers are added to a light
>base(5W, 10W, 20W), which prevent the oil from thinning as much as it
>warms up.  At cold temperatures the polymers are coiled up and allow the
>oil to flow as their low numbers indicate.  As the oil warms up the
>polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from
>thinning as much as it normally would.  The result is that at 100
>degrees C the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity
>number indicates.  Another way of looking at multi-vis oils is to think
>of a 20W-50 as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight
>would when hot.
>Multi viscosity oils are one of the great improvements in oils, but they
>should be chosen wisely.  Always use a multi grade with the narrowest
>span of viscosity that is appropriate for the temperatures you are going
>to encounter.  The polymers can shear and burn forming deposits that can
>cause ring sticking and other problems.  10W-40 and 5W-30 require a lot
>of polymers(synthetics excluded) to achieve that range.  This has caused
>problems in diesel engines, but fewer polymers are better for all
>engines.  The wide viscosity range oils, in general, are more prone to
>viscosity and thermal breakdown due to the high polymer content.
>Very few manufactures recommend 10W-40 any more, and some threaten to
>void warranties if it is used.  It was not included in this article for
>that reason.  20W-50 is the same 30 point spread, but because it starts
>with a heavier base it requires less viscosity index improvers
>(polymers) to do the job.  AMSOIL can formulate their 10W-30 and 15W-40
>with no viscosity index improvers but uses some in the 10W-40 and 5W-30.
>Mobil 1 uses no viscosity improvers in their 5W-30, and I assume the new
>Follow your manufacturer's recommendations as to which weights are
>appropriate for your vehicle.
>Viscosity Index is an empirical number indicating the rate of change in
>viscosity of an oil within a given temperature range.  Higher numbers
>indicate a low change, lower numbers indicate a relatively large change.
>The higher the number the better.  This is one major property of an oil
>that keeps your bearings happy.
>These numbers can only be compared within a viscosity range.  It is not
>an indication of how well the oil resists thermal breakdown.
>Flash point is the temperature at which an oil gives off vapors that can
>be ignited with a flame held over the oil.  The lower the flash point
>the greater tendancy for the oil to suffer vaporization loss at high
>temperatures and to burn off on hot cylinder walls and pistons.  The
>flash point can be an indicator of the quality of the base stock used.
>The higher the flash point the better.  400 F is the minimum to prevent
>possible high consumption.  Flash point is in degrees F.
>Pour point is 5 degrees F above the point at which a chilled oil shows
>no movement at the surface for 5 seconds when inclined.  This
>measurement is especially important for oils used in the winter.  A
>borderline pumping temperature is given by some manufacturers.  This is
>the temperature at which the oil will pump and maintain adequate oil
>pressure.  This was not given by a lot of the manufacturers, but seems
>to be about 20 degrees F above the pour point.  The lower the pour point
>the better.  Pour point is in degrees F.
>% sulfated ash is how much solid material is left when the oil burns.  A
>high ash content will tend to form more sludge and deposits in the
>engine.  Low ash content also seems to promote long valve life.  Look
>for oils with a low ash content.
>% zinc is the amount of zinc used as an extreme pressure, anti- wear
>additive.  The zinc is only used when there is actual metal to metal
>contact in the engine.  Hopefully the oil will do its job and this will
>rarely occur, but if it does, the zinc compounds react with the metal to
>prevent scuffing and wear.  A level of .11% is enough to protect an
>automobile engine for the extended oil drain interval, under normal use.
>Those of you with high reving, air cooled motorcycles or turbo charged
>cars or bikes might want to look at the oils with the higher zinc
>content.  More doesn't give you better protection, it gives you longer
>protection if the rate of metal to metal contact is abnormally high.
>High zinc content can lead to deposit formation and plug fouling.
>The Data:
>Listed alphabetically    --- indicates the data was not avaliable
>Brand                      VI    Flash    Pour    %ash   %zinc
>AMSOIL                    136     482     -38     <.5     ---
>Castrol GTX               122     440     -15     .85     .12
>Exxon High Performance    119     419     -13     .70     .11
>Havoline Formula 3        125     465     -30     1.0     ---
>Kendall GT-1              129     390     -25     1.0     .16>
>Pennzoil GT Perf.         120     460     -10     .9      ---
>Quaker State Dlx.         155     430     -25     .9      ---
>Shell Truck Guard         130     450     -15     1.0     .15
>Spectro Golden 4          174     440     -35     ---     .15
>Spectro Golden M.G.       174     440     -35     ---     .13
>Unocal                    121     432     -11     .74     .12
>Valvoline All Climate     125     430     -10     1.0     .11
>Valvoline Turbo           140     440     -10     .99     .13
>Valvoline Race            140     425     -10     1.2     .20
>Castrol Multi-Grade       110     440     -15     .85     .12
>Quaker State              121     415     -15     .9      ---
>Chevron                   204     415     -18     .96    .11
>Mobil 1                   180     430     -55     ---    ---
>Mystic JT8                144     420     -20     1.7     .15
>AMSOIL                    135     460     -38     <.5     ---
>Castrol                   134     415     -15     1.3     .14
>Chevron Delo 400          136     421     -27     1.0     ---
>Exxon XD3                 ---     417     -11     .9      .14
>Exxon XD3 Extra           135     399     -11     .95     .13
>Kendall GT-1              135     410     -25     1.0     .16
>Mystic JT8                142     440     -20     1.7     .15
>Shell Rotella w/XLA       146     410     -25     1.0     .13
>Valvoline All Fleet       140     ---     -10     1.0     .15
>Valvoline Turbo           140     420     -10     .99     .13
>AMSOIL                    142     480     -70     <.5     ---
>Castrol GTX               140     415     -33     .85     .12
>Chevron Supreme           150     401     -26     .96     .11
>Exxon Superflo Hi Perf    135     392     -22     .70     .11
>Exxon Superflo Supreme    133     400     -31     .85     .13
>Havoline Formula 3        139     430     -30     1.0     ---
>Kendall GT-1              139     390     -25     1.0     .16
>Mobil 1                   ---     430     -60     ---     ---
>Pennzoil PLZ Turbo        140     410     -27     1.0     ---
>Quaker State              156     410     -30     .9      ---
>Shell Fire and Ice        155     410     -35     .9      .12
>Shell Super 2000          155     410     -35     1.0     .13
>Shell Truck Guard         155     405     -35     1.0     .15
>Spectro Golden M.G.       175     405     -40     ---     ---
>Unocal Super              153     428     -33     .92     .12
>Valvoline All Climate     130     410     -26     1.0     .11
>Valvoline Turbo           135     410     -26     .99     .13
>Valvoline Race            130     410     -26     1.2     .20
>AMSOIL                    168     480     -76     <.5     ---
>Castrol GTX               156     400     -35     .80     .12
>Chevron Supreme           202?    354     -46     .96     .11
>Exxon Superflow HP        148     392     -22     .70     .11
>Havoline Formula 3        158     420     -40     1.0     ---
>Mobil 1                   150     430     -65     ---     ---
>Mystic JT8                161     390     -25     .95     .1
>Quaker State              165     405     -35     .9      ---
>Shell Fire and Ice        167     405     -35     .9      .12
>Unocal                    151     414     -33     .81     .12
>Valvoline All Climate     135     405     -40     1.0     .11
>Valvoline Turbo           158     405     -40     .99     .13
>All of the oils above meet current SG/CD ratings and all vehicle
>manufacture's warranty requirements in the proper viscosity.
>All are "good enough", but those with the better numbers are icing on
>the cake.
>The more expensive synthetics;  AMSOIL, Mobil 1, and Spectro offer the
>only truly significant differences, due to their superior high
>temperature oxidation resistance, high film strength, very low tendancy
>to form deposits, stable viscosity base, and low temperature flow
>characteristics.  Synthetics are superior lubricants compared to
>traditional petroleum oils.  You will have to decide if their high cost
>is justifed in your application.
>The extended oil drain intervals given by the vehicle
>manufacturers(typically 7500 miles) and synthetic oil companies(up to
>25,000 miles) are for what is called normal service.  Normal service is
>defined as the engine at normal operating temperature, at highway
>speeds, and in a dust free environment.  Stop and go, city driving,
>trips of less than 10 miles, or exterme heat or cold puts the oil change
>interval into the severe service category, which is 3000 miles for most
>vehicles.  Synthetics can be run two to three times the mileage of
>petroleum oils with no problems.  They do not react to combustion and
>combustion by-products to the extent that the dead dinosaur juice does.
>The longer drain intervals possible help take the bite out of the higher
>cost of the synthetics.
>If your car or bike is still under warranty you will have to stick to
>the recommended drain intervals.  These are set for petroleum oils and
>the manufacturers make no official allowance for the use of synthetics.
>Oil additives should not be used.  The oil companies have gone to great
>lengths to develop an additive package that meets the vehicle's
>requirements.  Some of these additives are synergistic, that is the
>effect of two additives together is greater than the effect of each
>acting separately.  If you add anything to the oil you may upset this
>balance and prevent the oil from performing to specification.
>The numbers above are not, by any means, all there is to determining
>what makes a top quality oil.
>The exact base stock used, the type, quality, and quantity of additives
>used are very important.  The given data combined with the
>manufacturer's claims, your personal experience, and the reputation of
>the oil among others who use it should help you make an informed choice.
> Ed Hackett                  The Desert Research Institute
> edh@wheeler.wrc.unr.edu     Reno, Nevada   (702) 673-7380
> DoD #200 WMTC BMWRA DIOC   I'm not really a chemist, I'm just
>one of
> DUCATI 900SS  BMW K100RS    them motorsicle sonsabitches.
>From: edh@wheeler.wrc.unr.edu
>Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles
>Subject: New oil data
>Message-ID: <4664@equinox.unr.edu>
>Date: 16 Oct 92 20:36:56 GMT
>Sender: news@equinox.unr.edu
>Reply-To: edh@wheeler.wrc.unr.edu ()
>Organization: Desert Research Institute, University of Nevada
>Lines: 34
>I just recieved this data from our local oil distributor.  It is
>the update on the new Mobil 1 formulation and that for the new
>Castrol Syntec.  They did not have the numbers for the new
>Valvoline synthetics yet.  The data on the new Mobil 1 is pretty
>impressive.  Based on these numbers, price, and availiability,
>there is little need to look further for a synthetic oil.
>The Syntec seems to be compromised by it's wide viscosity range.
>Notice that the pour point is for all practical purposes, no
>better than the Mobil 1 15W-50.  (actually, it's not as good)
>While, meeting the viscosity parmeters, the wide range is
>probably for marketing purposes.  The Mobil 1 15W-50 will pump at
>-35 degrees F, which is as good as some conventinal 5W-30 oils.
>Any of the ester based synthetics (AMSOIL, Mobil 1, and Syntec),
>will give you the benefits that Castrol is making a big deal of
>their advertising.  The ability to cling to metal walls is due to
>the polar nature of the ester base stock, not something unique to
>Castrol's formulation.
>The Data: (add to your current article)
>Brand and Weight     VI    Flash     Pour     %ash     %zinc
>Syntec 5W-50        180     437      -49      1.2      0.10
>Mobil 1  5W-30      165     445      -65      ---      ---
>        10W-30      160     450      -65      ---      ---
>        15W-50      170     470      -55      ---      ---
> Ed Hackett   edh@wheeler.wrc.unr.edu     The Desert Research
> DoD #0200  WMTC  BMWRA  DIOC             Reno, Nevada   (702)
> KotLS  KtoLE  DotD #0003            I'm not really a chemist,
>I'm just one of
> 900SS  K100RS  501 CAMEL            them motorsickle
>sonsabitches.  __=o&o>__
------------ End included text------------------------------

      Hans-Juergen Schneider
      Internet: hschnei@ibm.net
      Germany , 200 Quattro