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Re: vr6 and the competition

In a message dated 95-11-13 16:43:11 EST, you write:

>> audi in automatic form is a dog, torque brake, it's ok, but comparing
>> to liter the bmw has a better first execution.... 
>hmmm.  there are other factors besides the engine here.  such as the
>inertia of the 4wd drivetrain, the heavier body of the audi.  you can't
>really compare the engine's performance unless you've had an engine swap.
>i.e. sticking the audi v8 in the bimmer and vice versa. you can speak of
>the performance differences of both *cars*, but i don't agree that you can
>draw too many conclusions about the engines themselves when they are
>installed in totally different cars, driving radically different
>drivetrains.  in terms of smoothness and refinement there is little to
>differentiate them. 

Disagree with you here eliot, four wheel drive or not the drivetrain is what
it is, you can compare the motors, if the v8 is heavier then the engine
should have more torque (which it does not) and should mate to the chassis
properly (which the audi does not)
>>  throw in the very smooth 5spd auto of even the 3liter, and the early audi
>> can hardly hold its own........  
>i'm afraid this really is an apples to orange comparison.  the cars
>don't weigh the same, one's rwd, the other awd.. the only conclusion
>you can draw is that one car is faster than the other in the dry. you
>can't make any conclusions about the engines from this.

Sure you can....  My thinking is that the weight isn't as far off as you'd
think, and take the wagon if you need a really heavy car.....  The chassis
dynamics certainly would need your "swap" but the reality is that cars are
compared in their class eliot, that's the only way you can compare them, and
how all rags compare them, even Car magazine.....  That you can't draw
conclusions means that maybe there isn't enough communicating to the driver
from the car, or not enough seat time in the competition....    I can easily
compare my folks 3 liter Touring to my 2.3 liter turbo 5ktq, engine
drivetrain and chassis....  This ain't rocket science, it's hp and torque
>> Unreliable has not been a word that I've read about the bmw, and
>> well, um, you know, uh, well, the audis aren't exactly known for that r
>> at all
>i wasn't talking about peripherals, i was talking about the engine
>itself.  mine has not missed a tick since day 1.  the mechanics swear
>by it.  and CAR magazine is not one that is inhibited about reporting
>embarassing news.
Never thought I'd see you quote a mag as a reference, eliot.......  Still,
haven't heard mechanics swearing at the BMW either........
>>Example:  325i
>> 4door will (and that's 2.5 liter I-6) puts it in the same league as the
>> corrado, with little price advantage going to the corrado......  
>i drove several 325i's and was genuinely disappointed.  the steering
>was too low geared, heavy and uncommunicative, the engine sounded
>really coarse for a 6 and it didn't feel really quick to my spine.
Then it decieved you in the NVH and chassi department, cuz apples to apples
the 325 is a better corrado, BTDT.........  Vericom put the corrado at 6.8
(best) and the 325i coupe at 6.7 (consistent)
>comparison to a vr6 powered car, IMO.  i did enjoy the balance, but i
>don't really think that it is that easily rear wheel steerable off
>track.  structurally it doesn't feel up to current standards either.
>i'm sure i'm in the minority, but i think the 3 series is way
Then by argument, the corrado is too....  Cuz a given track will give the
advantage to the bmw.....   Overated, the 3 series stands on its own, I've
seen more press and posts on the vr6, which is overated, not for it's
intended use (and that is only to offer a 6 where a four was), but for it's
technical "highs".....  Ck the engine options on a 525/535/530/540/540
6spd....  All in the same chassis, the design is there, you should start
there, then execute the motor, not the other way around like the vr did.....
>i haven't tried the M3 yet, but with servotronic steering i am not
>salivating at the prospect at all.

You are missing out on a truely great experience, eliot...

>>The vr6 just
>> hasn't seen that potential, and per your argument, never will........   
>and that is a shame, because in a 3000 lb or less car, i wouldn't want
>anything else.  who knows what the 5 valve audi v6 will be like.. it
>may be the next generation of killer Q's...
....  But it can't, and therefore won't be the the next generation.....  the
vr6 filled it's slot with the best the Vw boy can put together, to not plan
for the next engine is just silly......
>> also drove a vr6 golf, too, and found little to get excited about, lots of
>> motor, but no refinement to it or the chassis it was stuffed in to........
>yes, they really f***'d up the chassis, but i think they are rectifying
>it for the 96 models...
Redesign the car, that 4th wheel in the air is 70's stuff, not 90's
But the Corrado needs some serious help to stay alive too.........
>of course the *obvious* thing they should do is reduce the weight of
>the cars, rather than keep increasing weight and increasing bhp.  it
>is indeed sad that one has to get up to porsche levels to see offerings
>of reduced junk.  and it is even sadder that porsche is charging more
>money for the stripped cars.  why can't they just not install the junk
>at the factory and pass the savings along?
RS series are interesting comebacks, even the M3 has it